Help with hope

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Rory Dougall's picture
Help with hope

Hi there,

This is my first post in this forum and I’m hoping to gain some advice but it could also be considered a debate in a sense. I am an LGBTQ person who went through a lot of traumatic experiences in the Roman Catholic Church and people outside the church who harmed me developmentally throughout my adolescence. In addition to being LGBTQ, I also have a form of cerebral palsy which makes me doubt religious teachings on homosexuality even more.

I am only 22 years old but I definitely see myself progressing towards a form of atheism/agnosticism because of the lack of evidence that God exists. What my main problem is having hope and confidence in myself that I will lead a successful life with a husband and a good career. I find prayer to be comforting because it gives me a sense of hope but my rational and intellectual side of me says that God is nothing more than an imaginary friend. My question is how do I get that same feeling of hope without prayer?

I apologize if I sound weird but I genuinely want to quit from praying. I hope that nobody judges me for this. Thank you for reading this post.

Ror

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mickron88's picture
@Rdouga

@Rdouga

welcome....

my advise is that....observe what happen if you stop praying and those times when your sincerely prayed..
it does nothing but..waste your time....and look stupid...

hey..feel free to look around and....again..welcome to AR.....*winks*

CyberLN's picture
Welcome to AR, Rdouga.

Welcome to AR, Rdouga.

Hope is part of you...not anything outside of you. You can still pray. As long as you understand that it is a meditation and not a request of any god(s) for intercession then there doesn’t seem, at least to me, harmful.

Cognostic's picture
@ I find prayer to be

@ I find prayer to be comforting because it gives me a sense of hope but my rational and intellectual side of me says that God is nothing more than an imaginary friend.

It's a good question for a religious person. Hope is fine all by itself. Hope does not lead us to some magical being that will intervene in our live, waggle his fingers and make us all better. Hope leads us to a future where we must either admit to ourselves that we are lying (not doing a damn thing to get what we want) or to the motivation to work towards what we want. If something is going to happen we must make it happen.

Faith - is not, nor has it ever been a path to truth. There is nothing in this world that can not be accepted on faith, It leads us nowhere. Accepting a god on faith is why we have millions of them with no evidence supporting any. Even in the Christian / Catholic faith there are 30.000 different gods, different religions, different dogma, different interpretations of the bible.

PRAYER - Intercessory prayer does not work. (Praying for someone else.) A recent, and the most extensive study ever, by PEW Research showed that hospital patients recovering from cancers did worse when they were prayed for and they knew they were being prayed for. They did the same as chance without knowledge of being prayed for and of course the control group performed at chance. The study is famous, you can find it on line.

There is a reason Christian's claim, "God helps those who help themselves." PRAYER DOES NOTHING ALONE. There is a connection between prayer and positive self affirmation. "I want the strength to work hard and earn a new car. I want the strength to work hard and earn a new car/" This is a positive affirmation if you are indeed working hard. You could do the same thing without "praying." I have been losing weight lately. At night as I am falling asleep, I chant to myself "Lose weight feel great." No God at all. And I am motivated to eat better and exercise more.

Hope is enough when you are moving your feet. Hope and hard work are fulfilling in themselves. Prayer / faith, do nothing at all that can not be accomplished in the same way with positive affirmations and hard work. Nothing comes to you by magic. If something positive does happen to you as you are praying, it is happening at the rate of chance and most likely would happen with or without prayer. Prayer does nothing.

Rory Dougall's picture
Hi guys,

Hi guys,

That was very fast! You guys seem to have a lot of members which is really promising. I really like what @Cognostix said because I think that is the primary reason why I’m struggling. I study social work and I know that if someone was talking to their friend “Albert”, they would be put on Seraquill immediately but for some reason if we talk to “God”, the same logic does not apply. Humans are gifted with the capacity to develop rational thought and reason because that is the best way to apply it to human societies.

There is also something really odd that goes on with theists in the sense that if a prayer is not answered, it’s in God’s will and if a prayer is answered, it is also in God’s will. That makes absolutely no sense.

I hope that as I read articles and develop new ways of thinking, I can use hope as a way to achieve my goals in life. I find that over time I develop my critical thinking skills and I can believe in myself more. There are a lot of interesting articles on here that I will read. I think I will eventually become an atheist, it just will take a little more time and self-confidence.

Tin-Man's picture
Hey there, Rdouga. Welcome to

Hey there, Rdouga. Welcome to our little AR community. Glad you stopped by, because you have come to the right place for advice. There are several regular members here who have experienced some form of abuse from the RCC and other religious sects, so it is important to know you are not alone.

With that being said, I think it is great to see you are making your "escape" from the insidious grasp of brainwashing nonsense. As far as your concerns about still praying, try not to over-think it or stress over it too much. If you were raised in that environment then habits like praying and such can often take awhile to break. That is normal. If you make the effort to research and learn more about the true history of religions and study sciences outside of religious influence, over time you will find other means of gaining comfort and that feeling of hope. And the need for prayer will gradually fade.

So, hang in there, big guy. You are on the right track of being able to live your life free and make your own decisions without the burden and oppression of religious guilt hanging over your head.

Now, gonna read the replies of the others. Hope to see you around.

LogicFTW's picture
@Rdouga's original post:

@Rdouga's original post:

You have good reason to doubt religion. Of any kind. Many people begin to doubt their religion when the reality of their lives do not measure up to what the religion says.

To me "prayer" is a shortcut to hope. It makes finding hope easy, but does it actually solve anything? no.

Even religions like the roman catholic church know this. When a church ask for donations, saying "I will pray for the church and it's clergy" instead of donating, every time the collection basket comes around will like draw scowls from the church. Even the church values money over prayer when it comes down to it.

Where can you find hope? Well for me you try to find it in advancement of the human race. While things have slowed in the US, (a country seemingly always behind in equality,) much of the world is continually getting more and more lgbtq friendly and accepting. Even super conservative and religious Ireland allowed for gay marriage a few years ago. Additionally you can place hope in the fast evolving field of medical science, amazing new developments are coming out all the time, perhaps a cure can be found for your form of cerebral palsy.

You can further your own hope by taking action in these areas, become someone that helps support both lgbtq rights and perhaps even someone that helps research in the medical field continue to advance. Taking action to better your life frequently makes people feel more hopeful.

arakish's picture
@RDouga

@RDouga

First and foremost, Well Come! to the Atheist Republic. Here you will most everyone of the regulars are friendly and laid-back. Except for me. It is kind of hard for a tree to lay back...

As others have already said. Prayer can be a form of focus for meditation. As long as you look at it as such. Even I can be said to "pray" sometimes, even though I am a life long atheist. When I start "praying" it is nothing more than a means for me to focus my meditation. Nothing more.

And here is a portion of a response I made elsewhere. It just seems to appropriate here:

I have actually dated a transgender. She was originally a he. She admitted it right up front on our first date, right at the beginning. Want to know how I replied? I just simply said, "OK. So what?" And She was the one who was shocked. I guess She never got that kind of response from other male-apes. Prolly because She was dating discriminative shitheads? Anyway, She was a very delightful person to be with. And should I dare to say this? Yes, we had sex. So what? If it had not been for me getting that job at Yellowstone and moving out west, we would still be in a relationship. However, She did not want to move away from Her mom. Her dad had died, and get this, just three days after my dad had died, in the same year. Kowinkadink? Anyway, we still keep in touch. And also get this, She also happens to have been a life long atheist.

There are persons out there that do care humanity as a whole and don't give a damn about what each individual person is/was. I believe every person has the inherent rights to do, to believe, to think, to be, to have, to want, to hope, to be with, to love, (there may be others I missed) whatsoever/whomsoever they wish.

Furthermore on the prayer thing. Whether you want to quit praying or not is your decision. We cannot make it for you. We can offer some advice, but it your choice. As I said, in a round-a-bout way, even I "pray". It is not prayer as the Absolutists believe in, it is nothing more than a tool to help focus my meditation. Especially, when I am angry and my mind is in a turmoil.

Again, Well Come! And enjoy yourself.

rmfr

LogicFTW's picture
@Arakish

@Arakish

I wish everyone was more like you. Open and accepting to all kinds. I am guessing, perhaps incorrectly that you are at least middle age. Changing your world view (albeit through a very tragic event,) is exceedingly rare for people as they get older and more set in their ways.

I consider myself very open, but I am not sure how I would of handled that date. I certainly would not have gotten upset at her, but I probably would of only been interested in being her friend and an ally rather than move forward with the date. I actually would like to get to the point that I was open as you are about that.

arakish's picture
I might be one of the yunguns

I might be one of the yunguns here, but I am 57. I always remember that "Infamous Kiss" on Star Trek. The one by William Shatner and Nicole Nichols. I figured, "Hell, if they can do that, why cannot anyone do the same with whomever." I forget her name, but there was a really famous transgender in the 60s. I just cannot remember her name. She got poopooed really badly by the Absolutists (Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts (The Cryin' Man), and Jerry Falwell) in those days. Because I was going through the horrors I suffered at hands of the church at the same time, instead of making me closed minded, it made me more open minded. It made me want to be more anti-Christian in my beliefs. And I have been that way ever since.

One of my Ten Commandments (which is actually 13 <:-O) states: You shall respect the right of ALL persons to believe in whatsoever they wish to believe even if contradictory to your own. You may discuss beliefs, but you shall never force your beliefs onto others.

The operative word "beliefs" means anything: religious, sexual orientation, gender, whatever. I think the one thing that made it so easy for me is that she did admit to it right off the bat. I prefer it much better that people do not have hide what they are.

rmfr

Sushisnake's picture
@Arakish

@Arakish

Re: ". I always remember that "Infamous Kiss" on Star Trek. The one by William Shatner and Nicole Nichols."

Ah yes! The kiss that was never supposed to actually happen! Their lips weren't supposed to actually touch but Shatner didn't realise that, and it was shot in such a way that you couldn't really see if they did or not.

We've come a long way in some ways, not so far in others. Not far at all if you realise we're having exactly the same arguments and only changed the bogey man's name , hey? But that's how society progresses- a few steps at a time. Unfortunately, it regresses that way, too.

If you want to see society stride ahead, read the Bible. Not much difference between it and the Quran really, is there? THE difference is secular society declawed the Bible. Secular Muslims are trying to declaw the Quran, too.

mickron88's picture
"I am guessing"

"I am guessing"

he's 22 LFTW...22...*whispering*

Cognostic's picture
LOL,,, You can not possibly

LOL,,, You can not possibly go into Social Work, keep your eyes open, and believe in a god. As people kill themselves using or over drugs and alcohol, kill their kids by beating them to death, drugging them, or worse, beat their spouses, molest their kids, lie to you in counseling sessions, and avoid responsibility for every vice known to human nature, you will notice that God just does not give a shit. And the assholes with their little feel good prayer sessions have done nothing at all to alleviate the problems. (Let's turn it over to god, not worry about it, and just let god deal with it.) A true recipe for disaster as well as a covert message to just keep doing as you are doing because it's all god's will anyway. ) Have a few babies die in your arms or walk in on some corps that ODed on drugs or alcohol and has half their face eaten away by the family cat while the rats have nibbled off the toes and fingers. Your God is a complete Asshole.

Oh! While you are going into the profession. Get yourself a small recording device and never leave home without it. There is no defense against an accusation. One accusation can ruin your career. Social workers are not like the police. They are a dime a dozen and easily replaced. They do not have a union and the profession is loaded with moronic do-gooders that want to save the world and see everyone who is poor as a victim and someone to be saved. Document everything. Never care more about a client than they care about themselves. (This is really good advice.)

Rory Dougall's picture
@cognostic Thanks for the

@cognostic Thanks for the advice. Unfortunately I am not allowed to have a recording device with me because of HIPPA regulations that protect patient’s privacy. However, I plan on being a macro level social worker that does more policy-oriented work for the LGBTQ community so I should be safe. I had a Christian Fundamentalist as my full-time aide in high school (yes, it was as bad as it sounds) and I could not tell anybody about it because of my upbringing at home.

@arakish Thank you’re for the post because that helped me a lot. I think most of it relates back to the lack of self-confidence and it is refreshing to hear that there are people who are very open-minded. You sound like a great person.

Thank you all for the welcomes, I really appreciate it!

arakish's picture
@RDouga

@RDouga

"You sound like a great person."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9D7C3xqSYEs

rmfr

Cognostic's picture
HIPPA does not apply when you

HIPPA does not apply when you have people sign a waver. The waver can be included in the confidentiality agreement and states something like, "some sessions may be recorded." That's it. Whether or not you record is a function of how well you are at explaining it to a client. In 20 years I had one client walk because they did not want to be recorded. Keep in mind, in today's world, the client may also be recording you. Even with a release it can be exploitation if you share it, even with a college, without further permission. But if a court subpoenas your files, the recording could save your butt.

Good luck with Social Work, it's hard to be bored as there is something new every day. And just as you think you have seen it all..... ....

Sushisnake's picture
@Rdouga

@Rdouga

Hi and welcome!

Re: covering your ass as a social worker.

If you can't record, diarise.

turning_left's picture
@Rdouga

@Rdouga

It's so great that you're looking to be a social worker who works to benefit the LGBTQ community. That's so important and needed! And you have direct experience, which is so valuable. That will truly help to create hope for those in your community.

I'm a queer ex-Fundamentalist Christian woman and totally feel for you and your traumatic experiences in the church. I'm so sorry you had to endure all of that and am excited that you've come to a place of accepting yourself and looking to your future with hope!

Regarding prayer: When I left Christianity and eventually belief in God, prayer was such a habit that I'd start doing it without thinking and then realize that I was basically just talking to myself. That habit subsided, but now I sort of embrace talking to myself as a replacement for prayer. It might sound like, "Today, when I see that frustrating coworker, I want to be more gracious and kind in my responses to her." Or "Today I want to trust myself and be confident in my decisions." And though this has no magical power, I find it to be really helpful for me in focusing on who I want to be in my day.

And in response to: "What my main problem is having hope and confidence in myself that I will lead a successful life with a husband and a good career."

One of the things that has been most helpful for me in having hope for my life is to look to other people who have already accomplished the things I hope for. When I first came out of the church, I didn't know any lesbian couples, so the idea of having a successful future with a woman was so hard for me to grasp. But there are far more success stories out there than you'd imagine! A great life is possible! Having an encouraging and supportive community, and perhaps even some sort of mentor, can be so helpful when looking toward the future. Wishing you all the best!

Tin-Man's picture
@RDouga

@RDouga

Here's something I hope will help you a bit...

Many years ago when I still on patrol and working the evening shift, there was a club where a buddy of mine worked as security. Sometimes I would stop in there on my way home just to hang out with him and maybe help out if needed. It was something of an alternative club, and it was pretty cool.

Well, one night I was there during Gay Pride week, and it seemed pretty much everybody from the parade was in the club that night. Everybody was having a great time, and it was quite fun to watch. (I'm a "people watcher". *chuckle*) Of course, I was in uniform and just walking around keeping an eye on things. At one point I was walking down the stairs to the lower level of the club where there was a cover-charge payment counter. As I neared the bottom of the steps I heard a sudden loud hooting and hollering and laughter (over the already incredibly loud noise of the club itself). At the counter were four or five guys in various costumes being very rowdy, but not in a bad way. Just happy and celebrating. The apparent "leader" of the group spotted me and got a momentarily worried look on his face, as if he thought he was in trouble. Then he said to me, "I'm so sorry, officer, but we're gay and just can't help ourselves." I stopped and looked right at him with a puzzled expression and stated, "Why would you apologize to me for being gay? If you are happy being who you are, you do not owe me or anybody else any apologies." He looked shocked for a moment, then he smiled and said, "Ya know, you are absolutely right. Thank you."

Bottom line: NEVER apologize for being who you are. Be proud of who and what you are. Be happy and make your life as grand as you want it to be. YOU are the one who has to live your life. Nobody else can do that for you.

Flamenca's picture
Heya, @Rdouga. Welcome!

Heya, @Rdouga. Welcome! Another ex-RCC here.

I totally understand you, because it took me a few years to get rid of the silly habit of praying. It's very liberating when you realize nothing changes and that it is much more useful to act than to expect some luck from talking to oneself. @Cognostic's posts are very clear about this, and on how it wouldn't help you in your future job, but quite the opposite.

I hope to read more from you in the future.

Sheldon's picture
Firstly welcome. It's

Firstly welcome. It's difficult as an atheist to equate anything with prayer in the sense you describe. However meditation can be very rewarding, and it's rewards are not dependant on anything supernatural existing.

It also occurs to me that if you continue to reason as you do then belief in a deity will at some point become impossible for you, and prayer may no longer satisfy the need you describe. So it might be prudent to start using an alternative technique now so that you don't have to cope with losing this experience all at once.

Most of all try not to worry. You seem to have a healthy outlook and a rational grasp of things. I've seen no evidence that prayer is anything but a trick people use to derive a happy contented frame of mind from. So there's no reason meditation can't do the same thing if you want it to. Best of all it requires only the will to practise.

Good luck.

Sapporo's picture
If you write down your hopes

If you write down your hopes and fears and ambitions, you will probably feel better.

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