Hello...I'm one of those dreaded agnostics.

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Sushisnake's picture
@Frank

@Frank

"There is no way to KNOW that gods exist or not. Both are possible. Theists claim it is more likely that at least one god exists…and claim that the preponderance of evidence points in that direction. Atheists claim it is more likely that no gods exist…and claim that the preponderance of evidence points in that direction.

They are using THE SAME “evidence.”

Frankly, none of the “evidence” points in either direction as far as I can see. Atheists mostly blindly guess there are no gods and theists mostly blindly guess there is at least one (the one they worship).

As I see it, one cannot come to the conclusion “There is at least one god” or “There are no gods”…using logic, reason, science, or math. All one can do is to make a guess in either direction.

As I said…I DO NOT MAKE THAT GUESS.

Let’s discuss that."

Okie dokie. By your definition, everyone's an agnostic- theist, polytheist, atheist, deist. We're all primates too, but we find species differentiation useful. Politicians are all politicians- but it's useful to know which are socialists and which are libertarians on polling day. What purpose would everyone calling themself an agnostic serve, Frank?

Frank Apisa's picture
Sushisnake, you wrote:

Sushisnake, you wrote:

Okie dokie. By your definition, everyone's an agnostic- theist, polytheist, atheist, deist. We're all primates too, but we find species differentiation useful. Politicians are all politicians- but it's useful to know which are socialists and which are libertarians on polling day. What purpose would everyone calling themself an agnostic serve, Frank?

It would make no sense...and I would never suggest we do so.

I WOULD suggest we all state our position without labels...which is what I do. Labels, if they mean different things to different people, become virtually useless...which is why I specify MY agnosticism rather than simply call myself agnostic.

I accept that not everyone wants to state his/her position, though...so...

LogicFTW's picture
@Frank Apisa

@Frank Apisa
Edited: added a paragraph near bottom.

It is fine to label your specific agnosticism, but without careful defining of it we must make certain assumptions on what you mean.
For instance, I considered myself agnostic for a long time over atheist, until I carefully read accepted definitions. The whole idea of: I am not omniscient, I can not know everything with absolute certainty makes a lot of sense, and makes agnostic very compelling.

It was not so much the definition of "atheist" "agnostic" or even "theist" but the commonly accepted and shared definition of god that switched me from agnostic to atheist.

A few copy paste from various widely used dictionaries definition on god:

Googles:
1. (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
synonyms: the Lord, the Almighty, the Creator, the Maker, the Godhead
2. (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.
"a moon god"
synonyms: deity, goddess, divine being, celestial being, divinity, immortal, avatar
"sacrifices to appease the gods"

.

Merriam-Websters:
1 capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: such as
a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe
b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2 : a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality Greek gods of love and war

.

Dictionary.com:
1.
the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
2.
the Supreme Being considered with reference to a particular attribute:
the God of Islam.

.

.

There is a pattern here. Words being used over all these definitions like:
creator, supreme being, ruler, worshipped, perfect, power, divine, require human worship, source of all moral authority, having power over humans.
I realized, with everything I learned, I strongly disagree with a god depicted with those attributes, especially the "require human worship" It makes no sense, plus there is no evidence for any of gods defined like this. Would you feel like you are "agnostic" to a tooth fairy idea? Especially if the tooth fairy was described like it was a god with things like "requires worship" creator, etc? I sure would not consider my self agnostic to the tooth fairy like that.

However, if your definition of "god" is simply, "some sort of greater being we know nothing about" and does not effect or relate to our lives in any way, I would join you in your camp of "agnostic." Under such definition I would turn and point to the sun, hey, there's a possible "god," it certainly seems greater than humans, been around a long time, very powerful, w/o we would die near instantly, without the sun our solar system and planet would never have formed, the sun could even be argued as a creator. But do I think it is sentient or requires worship or even remotely cares about humans and/or me? No way! Planet earth could be thought of the sameway. The force of gravity as well. Such a broad definition allows for many, many gods. All the gods everyone has ever thought up would fit under that definition. Even the trillion different gods I just thought up, but labeled only as the "trillion" with no further thought.

It gets worse, ask your average church follower the definition of "god" and it will most likely be, exactly their particular version of god, and not even the accepted dictionary definition. If you do not specify your definition of god to these people, when you say "there is no evidence for or against your god, no proof either way, you are saying, your god might be right, might be wrong, 50/50 coin flip, even if you think your god has talking bushes, caused a global flood, and the world is ~6000 years old, and created in 7 days, some of which created before even "light" was created. Or other nonsensical ideas from other gods lots of folks worshipped or still do.

So your exact personal definition of agnostic is important here if you want to discuss agnostic. Or the conversation dissolves into thousands of different possibilities with no cohesion.

Sushisnake's picture
@Frank

@Frank

Ok. Now I'm with you. You're after our positions because the labels "atheist" and " theist" tell you nothing at all. I agree with you, but I still maintain one can't "talk about this word “believe” (and its friend “belief”) " unless we've defined what gods/deities we're talking about believing/not believing in, since the word "gods" can mean anything from Thor to Lord Ganesha to the Holy Trinity. It can mean the benevolent Universe or karma or Quantum Woo. It can mean whatever anyone wants it to mean. It's the most useless, meaningless, empty label there is. It tells you nothing and takes you nowhere about what someone does/does not believe or know, unless they define "god" first.

You wanted to know our positions, so here's mine:

I do not know if omniscient* deities exist or not;
I see no reason to suspect omniscient deities CANNOT EXIST...or that the existence of omniscient deities is impossible;
I see no reason to suspect that omniscient deities MUST EXIST...or that omniscient deities are needed to explain existence;
I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base knowledge in either direction.

I'm an agnostic deist, but believe the existence of such deities very, very unlikely. I also think the existence of such deities would be pretty useless to us all, anyway- of no practical value whatsoever.

*1. Please replace "omniscient" with "omnipotent"  - rinse and repeat
  2. Please replace "omnipotent" with "omnibenevolent" - rinse and repeat
  3. Please note the deities may have any two of the above characteristics in
       combination, but they can't have all three: eg omnibenevolent, omniscient deities may be  
       powerless to stop evil. Omniscient, omnipotent deities may enjoy evil- even create it.
       Omnipotent, omnibenevolent deities wouldn't see evil coming, so couldn't prevent it.

I do know an omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipotent personal god who hears prayers and rewards/punishes human behaviour does not exist;
I see no reason to suspect an omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipotent personal god who hears prayers and rewards/punishes human behaviour CAN EXIST...or that the existence of an omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipotent personal god who hears prayers and rewards/punishes human behaviour is possible;
I see no reason to suspect an omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipotent personal god who hears prayers and rewards/punishes human behaviour MUST EXIST...or that an omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipotent personal god who hears prayers and rewards/punishes human behaviour is needed to explain existence;
I see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base this knowledge.

I'm a gnostic atheist in the matter of an omniscient, omnibenevolent, omnipotent personal god who hears prayers and rewards/punishes human behaviour and believe the existence of such a god impossible. Please note I do not have to prove this knowledge, any more than I have to prove gravity. I merely have to evidence it. It isn't a "guess", it's a reasoned conclusion drawn from the evidence.

Sheldon's picture
"I understand that SOME

"I understand that SOME atheists want “atheism” to mean the absence of a belief in a deity"

Well that may or may not be true, but it's entirely moot as that *IS the dictionary definition, which is (like all words) derived from common usage. So whether anyone accepts it is a moot point. I define my position as lacking the belief that any deity or deities are real, so by the dictionary definition I am an atheist. The label is not important nd only a useful word to clarify my position is a lack of belief in a diety. If it were defined differently then it might not apply to me, and I get the impression from a lot of these discussion with theists and religious apologetics that they *WANT to redefine it so they can reverse the burden of proof, Breezy does this all the time.

"SOME dictionaries define it that way."

All dictionaries define it that way, though they may have secondary definitions that are less commonly used. Again this is true of all words.

"But that essentially is the result of a mistake about the etymology of the word."

I don't think this is true but even if it were what difference would it make since the word's primary definition exactly defines my position? So when I say I am an atheist everyone can know instantly what I mean, and not what many theists who don't like the definition want it to mean which is irrelevant to my position?

"I certainly do not accept that definition (which is only one among many)…so that may explain why I say what I do. (We can discuss its etymology if you want.)"

Well I'd rather discuss why you don't accept the dictionaries primary definition, if you feel it doesn't apply to you then you can clarify your position, rather than try and change a word definition that is how most people define it already. I also hear this a lot, usually from American theists who try to redefine the word for their benefit, to avoid the burden of proof for the claim a deity exists.

"whether or not any gods exist)…the words “believe” and “belief” are merely disguises for a blind guess."

I don't agree, and the rejection of a claim doesn't carry the burden of proof, it is according to philosophical epistemology the person who makes the primary claim that has the burden of proof in any discussion.

"There is no way to KNOW that gods exist or not. Both are possible."

Two errors here sorry, firstly your initial claim would need to accurately define a deity before we can know what evidence there is for them or to refute the claim. Your second claim seems to contradict your first, if there is no way to know whether a claim is true or not, then you can't say whether either position is possible. What objective evidence can you demonstrate to show a deity is possible?

"Theists claim it is more likely that at least one god exists"

Oh dear, could you demonstrate objective evidence for this please?

"and claim that the preponderance of evidence points in that direction. "

Really? What evidence is this, and could you demonstrate it please, can any of it be objectively validated, because theists call everything evidence, and I've seen only anecdotal claims and irrational fallacious arguments. I even started a thread on here for someone to demonstrate any objective evidence for a deity or deities and no one could offer anything but the fallacious arguments and anecdotal claims I mentioned.

"Atheists claim it is more likely that no gods exist…and claim that the preponderance of evidence points in that direction."

In my experience most atheists don't claim this, rather they point out as I have that there is no objective evidence for the claim a deity exists, and they may offer rational or evidenced arguments against certain claims from apologetics. It is an unequivocal fact that humans create and have created fictional deities, no one can reasonably deny that fact.

"They are using THE SAME “evidence.”"

Nope, what evidence are you referring to for the existence of any deity? Can any objective evidence be demonstrated for the belief? If not then I need no counter evidence, and Hitchens's epistemological razor applies, "that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence".

"Frankly, none of the “evidence” points in either direction as far as I can see. Atheists mostly blindly guess there are no gods "

So you admit in the sentnece that there is no evidence that a deity exists, then describe people who refuse to believe they exist as guessing? Do you believe mermaids exist, and if not is it just a "blind guess" that they don't?

" theists mostly blindly guess there is at least one (the one they worship)."

So an inherently biased position for a start. Atheists apply a consistent standard for belief in deities, and monotheists demonstrably favour just one.

"As I see it, one cannot come to the conclusion “There is at least one god” or “There are no gods”…using logic, reason, science, or math. All one can do is to make a guess in either direction."

Why would you believe something is real when no one can demonstrate any objective evidence to support the claim, and what's more logic and reason absolutely support withholding belief in things we can find no evidence for, this is all before we tackle the claims religions make that are absolutely falsifiable, and many of which have been shown by scientific evidence to be false. Creationism is a superstitious belief with no evidence, evolution is a scientific fact that has 150+ years of scientific scrutiny to support it, and remains a scientific fact explained by the scientific theory of evolution. It is a scientific fact evidenced beyond any reasonable doubt that we evolved slowly overtime like all life, and were not created in our current form. To show just one claim by religious apologetics that has been thoroughly refuted by science. Theists of course are understandably in a quandary here and refuse either to accept the fact at all, or try to cherry pick what it means in such a way that they can preserve the belief they have no objective evidence for anyway.

However I am now digressing, the fact is believing in a deity or deities carries a burden of proof by any epistemological standard, and religious apologetics would hardly be the massive industry it is if this were not the case. Whilst atheists are free to make claims and show evidence that supports their atheism, atheism does not require this, as it is simply the absence of a belief which no one can demonstrate any objective evidence for.

Frank Apisa's picture
Nyarlathotep, you wrote:

Nyarlathotep, you wrote:

"Sure some atheists claim that, others do not."

I've never known or heard about one who didn't. Not sure what kind of person would NOT claim it is more likely that no gods exist...and that the preponderance of evidence points in that direction...and still claim to be an atheist.

But...I could be wrong. So...I'll acknowledge that I could be.

Thank you for the correction.

Cognostic's picture
FIRST: There is no category

FIRST: There is no category called "Agnostic." Everyone is agnostic. Christians are agnostic and atheists are agnostic. A = Without and Gnosis = KNOWLEDGE OF GOD. (THERE IS NO KNOWLEDGE OF GOD)

If you think you got some, post it and see what happens. The reason you are "dreaded" is because you are a wimp and unwilling to answer the question "Do you believe in a God."

The concept of God is an un-falsifiable and unproved assertion that people choose to "BELIEVE IN" or "Not BELIEVE IN.." Agnosticism is about what you KNOW - Knowledge. Atheism is about what you BELIEVE.

A= without Theism = A belief in god. So when someone asks you, "Do you believe in God?" and you respond, "I am agnostic." You are avoiding the question an simply being a coward to take a position. THERE IS NO KNOWLEDGE OF GOD. That is not what you have been asked. Given that you are like everyone else in the world and can not prove or deny an unverifiable hypothesis "God exists." do you believe in a god or not? Stop being one of those "dreaded (by whom I have no idea) agnostics and say what you actually believe.

Frank Apisa's picture
Cognostic, you wrote,

Cognostic, you wrote,

"The reason you are "dreaded" is because you are a wimp and unwilling to answer the question "Do you believe in a God."

Thank you for stopping by, Cognostic.

Unfortunately, this will be the last we speak unless you apologize and indicate you will not veer into personal insults.

Cognostic's picture
@Frank ApisaI: have no

@Frank ApisaI: have no "belief" on the specific issue of, "Do any gods exist or not."

This is a lie. "Do you believe in God" is your opinion on a single proposition. You either say "Yes" or "No." Here is a hint for you. If you assert "I don't know, you are an atheist." Jesus requires belief and that you love him as a family member or you burn in hell forever. "I don't know would never hold up in a court of inquisition. You are guilty of sin and must burn in hell for your NON-BELIEF. "I don't know" is not believing..

Sheldon's picture
"Do you believe in God" is

"Do you believe in God" is your opinion on a single proposition. You either say "Yes" or "No." Here is a hint for you. If you assert "I don't know, you are an atheist."

I think it would be more accurate to say it can be inferred that you are an atheist, as it seems irrational to believe something exists if you don't know whether it does or not. I don't know id mermaids are real in an absolute sense, but I know no one has demonstrated proper evidence for one, so I don't believe they are real. The same precisely as my lack of belief in a deity, or atheism.

arakish's picture
John 6 Breezy

John 6 Breezy

I've come to the conclusion that an atheist, both historically and literally, is a person that negates or opposes the existence of God. Its inherent in the very word, a- (negation) theos (gods). In this sense, atheism isn't the absence of a belief in God, but its polar opposite. It is a person who believes the universe, and themselves, to be without gods.

People like you are neither theist nor atheist. Those categories, as you have shown, do not describe your position, your attitude, nor your beliefs.

I think I now know why part of your username is "Breezy."

You have it so completely wrong about the etymology of the the word "atheist." Let's see if I can remember what my wife taught me.

Atheist is from the Greek

ενα–, most often shortened to just α– (a–) = to be without.

AND

θεοσ (theos) = God, Lord, or Creator.

Thus, you get αθεοσ (atheos) = atheist = to be without God.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO NEGATION whatsoever in that word origin. Thus, you can see how the word "atheist" actually means to have no belief in any god(s).

Remember this, my wife was GREEK. She may have been born as a first generation American-Greek, but her parents immigrated from Greece due to persecution from the Greek Orthodox Church for being atheists.

Next time, I would suggest you get your facts straight.

rmfr

P.S.– Yes, the prefix is actually ενα–. However, into English, it is shortened to just a–.

Edit: Took out some stuff...

Frank Apisa's picture
John6.

John6.

BINGO!

I have no problem with atheists deciding how they want to define atheism...but if they are going to define it in a binary, zero sum way so that one is either a theist or an atheist...we part company.

Sheldon's picture
I didn't and don't choose how

I didn't and don't choose how I define atheism, I accept the common usage of the word, and this is all anyone can do. The fact it reflects my position is why I call myself an atheist, but there is no redefining of atheism here, if it did not define my position on this one belief I wouldn't accept I was an atheist, or at least clarify what type of atheist I was. Atheism however remains the absence or lack of belief in a deity or deities.

Again I'm not able to understand how you can claim not to believe a deity is real and simultaneously claim you're not an atheist. I know that the word atheist is shunned in the US of course, and has deeply prejudiced connotations from christians especially.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
Interesting, you quoted me as

Interesting, you quoted me as saying: "It is a person who believes the universe, and themselves, to be without gods."

Then you said I was I was wrong, only to agree with me in your own definition: "Thus, you get αθεοσ (atheos) = atheist = to be without God."

So it seems I was right, and your only objection is with the word negate. I understood that word to mean nullify, which in practice means you don't have it, you're without it, you oppose it, disagree with it, don't like it, deny, contradict, etc. Regardless, you just parsed apart the word and told us atheist means to be without God. Why then, does your very next sentence change it to "have no belief in any gods"

Which is it? Does atheos mean to be without God, or to be without beliefs on God?

Sheldon's picture
"Which is it? Does atheos

"Which is it? Does atheos mean to be without God, or to be without beliefs on God?"

Atheism
Noun
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Atheism is adequately defined from common usage in the dictionary. How an atheist defines their lack of belief may go further if they wish it, it's not nearly as complicated as religious apologists try to make out.

arakish's picture
As I said, I know why part of

As I said, I know why part of your username is "Breezy." It represents that large vacant space upstairs...

Fine, since you seem to have nothing to cogitate the point I made, I have now only included the part that shows where you were wrong. Previously, I included your entire quote so that all the context was there. I focused specifically on where you were wrong in the definition of the Greek prefix ενα– (α–). However, since you are such a "Breezy" airhead, you completely missed the point I was making.

...a- (negation)...

...negates or opposes...

...negate... ...nullify...

The Greek prefix ενα–, most often shortened to just α– specifically means only "to be without".

It does NOT negate, nor does it nullify, nor does it oppose, the meaning of the word to which it is attached like the two prefixes of "un–" and "in–" as in English.

And actually in Greek the word is εναθεοσ (enatheos) from which we also get the English word "anathema."

And anathema, in our case means "a formal ecclesiastical curse involving excommunication; any imprecation of divine punishment."

And that is fitting for what you Absolutists attempt to do with us Atheists. However, since I do not believe those preposterous claims made by you Absolutists, there is no divine punishment.

If I did not say such, remember, my wife was Greek. I know Greek. Evidently you do not. And you cannot figure out on what a person specifically focuses their correction of your mistake.

rmfr

P.S.- I am now off to work and will be gone until Thursday. Feel free to belittle me while I am gone.

Sheldon's picture
If you've been unlucky enough

If you've been unlucky enough to experience a few of Breezy's posts, you'll notice that dishonesty and evasion are common tactics he employs. He repeats the same fallacious arguments then tells you you're being repetitive. I don't think he grasps irony at all.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
I don't have any issues with

I don't have any issues with what you're saying. We disagree on what the word negate implies, not what atheism means (Ironically I used the word negate because atheists here have used it as well; see attachment).

In practice there is no difference between what you said and what I'm saying: Atheism is to be without God.

Nothing good might come from saying this, but I'm not entirely ignorant in Greek. However, my education only encompasses reading Greek (not necessarily understanding it), being able to parse verbs and adjectives, knowing their declensions, as well as knowing a handful of vocabulary words.

When it comes to suffixes and prefixes, I'm basing it on English.

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Cognostic's picture
@Frank ApisaI: "I see no

@Frank ApisaI: "I see no reason to suspect gods CANNOT EXIST...that the existence of gods is impossible."

You need to familiarize yourself with the "NULL HYPOTHESIS." The existence of god is an un-falsifiable and un-verifiable claim. It's like trying to disprove magical flying, non-corporal, purple dragons made of invisible marshmallow.

The null hypothesis basically asserts that there are no connections between one thing and another, there are no similarities, there is not cause effect relationship, there is no existence of anything until it has been proved. The person asserting that a god exists has a burden of proof. If they can not prove their claim, the claim is null and void. The person asserting a god does not exist is also asserting a claim. If he or she can not prove a god exists, his arguments are null and void. For 10,000 years and millions of Gods, all arguments for and against them have been null and void.

If you think the atheist position is one of "God does not exist." You are wrong. Atheists do not believe in gods. That means when the religious make their insane claims, atheists assert, "We do not believe you claim and here is why...." At no point do atheists need to defend the claim that God does not exist. This is a separate claim and it is not needed to debunk Christian or other religious claims/.

Imagine you have a jar of jelly beans. You tell me that the number of beans in the jar is even. I ask if you have counted them and you tell me no. "How do you know?" I ask. "I have faith and I believe." is your response. I then tell you, "I don't believe you." NOTE: I did not assert that the number of beans in the jar was even.

Denying Christian claims is not Asserting opposite claims. NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT A FLYING, NONCORPORAL, OMNIPOTENT, OMNIPRESENT, BEING WHO DOES MAGIC, LIVES BEYOND TIME AND SPACE, AND WHO CARES ABOUT WHERE YOU PUT YOUR SEX ORGAN DOES NOT EXIST. No one! The God idea can no more be proved or falsified than can the idea of magical flying elephants that grant wishes.

All you do when you assert you are "Agnostic" is demonstrate ignorance of the term you are using.

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
Either God exists or he doesn

Either God exists or he doesn't, there is no middle ground. If theists claim God exists, then to reject that is to claim God doesn't exist. There's no way I can reject the existence of unicorns, but not be claiming they don't exist, that's a meaningless statement.

You bring up the null hypothesis, but that's literally how it works. If I want to reject a claim, that God exists, I have to find support for the null hypothesis. Failing to support the null hypothesis, means we are free to accept the opposite claim. You're clearly unable to support the null hypothesis, that God doesn't exist, otherwise why call it unfalsifiable?

CyberLN's picture
You’ve presented this

You’ve presented this argument before, John.

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LogicFTW's picture
@Breezy

@Breezy
Need to at least add "their" to: "If theist claim god exists"

Pretty much all theist say all but 1 god does not exist, only their specific idea of god exist. Ofcourse illustrating one of the many hypocrisies of religion.

I am a bit confused tho Breezy, you make it sound like you are an atheist. Unless you believe your particular god does definitely exists, which god is that again?

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
All theists agree that there

All theists agree that there is something god-like, some agency, etc. First I ask if something like that exists, and if so, then I ask for the specifics. I have more in common with a Hindu than with an Atheist. I agree with Hindus on the existence of a god-like agency, I just disagree with them on the specifics. I don't see the hypocrisy in that.

If you click on my profile, it should tell you my religious affiliation. You should be able to deduce which God based on that information.

LogicFTW's picture
@Breezy

@Breezy
Good point, I should of checked your profile, christianity huh? Seems pretty broad, so many slightly different definitions of god fall within the "christianity" umbrella. With many very strongly disagreeing on some or nearly all points to other people within the scope of "christianity." Tells us some, but no specifics fine detail specifics of your god belief. Would you say "a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings" is the sum of how specific you want to go with your beliefs? Things like abortion, slavery, heaven/hell sanctity of marriage (must be between male/female) etc are: dont know dont care?

You said:

Either God exists or he doesn't, there is no middle ground.

I said:

Pretty much all theist say all but 1 god does not exist, only their specific idea of god exist.

To which you respond:

All theists agree that there is something god-like, some agency, etc.

I struggle with you stating: you define your belief as something as broad and open ended as simply "christian," but then you say there is no middle ground you either believe in god or you do not. Most people when they talk of what they consider the word god to mean, it is a very narrow definition, that pertains to their exact god belief. And their exact god belief is different enough that they are willing to go to war, enslave and conqueror others that do not believe in their exact god version or something really close to it.

Saying you believe in the christian god/jesus, normally on accepted definitions of commonly shared english language we are using, that I have to assume, the definition of god that states you worship it, that you believe the commonly held christian belief that it is the one true god, that other people's belief in gods, are wrong/misguided. But, these other god-like religions are partially correct in the ways their god beliefs intersect with yours (all powerful, creator, requires worship, etc.)

It feels like you are trying to use definitions and words that lets you walk a line where you can say you believe in god, but none of the specifics of it matters. If the specifics do not matter, I can say: I am a believer in christianity, I believe it is the god of imagination of humans. And it requires no worship, no thought, no work or effort on my end, and effects me and my afterlife in no way. Hey, I can very confusingly label myself a theist heck even a christian if I can be that unspecific about it, go me!

ʝօɦռ 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐʏ's picture
Well no; that is why I said

Well no; that is why I said the first question to ask has to be a broad one, since theism encompasses a broad territory. After that, once the dust has settled and the theism vs atheism debate is over, you have to ask the second question about the specifics of theism.

LogicFTW's picture
So a sort of: settle "is

@Breezy

So a sort of: settle "is there any sort of "god" (still need to clarify definition of god) and then once it is decided there is or is not any possibility of a "god", then debate over a particular "god" if there is some possibility for a god.

What is your "god" definition? If you don't want to specify yours exactly, then I will take say, merriam webster's definition of the word "god." Not the definition of christian god, but the merriam webster definition of any god. I will pick merriam webster for this reply but feel to pick whichever definition of "god" you like.

"a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality"

To which I say: I never met or found evidence for a being/object that has more than natural attributes and powers. And I most certainly never met or found evidence for an object or being that requires human worship (tRump jokes aside.) I also never met an object or being or found any evidence for one that meets the attributes of the last sentence of the definition and can control a particular aspect or part of reality. All evidence points towards there is no "god."

I imagine here, at this point you are going to point out your particular, more narrowly defined definition of god. That is fine. I am eager to hear it.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ LtW

@ LtW
and here comes the classic slippery wriggle from Johnny Fabreezey...Behold!

Sushisnake's picture
Slippery as an

Slippery as an

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Sushisnake's picture
And I should know, being a

And I should know, being a

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Yes
Sheldon's picture
Nothing dishonest about eels.

Nothing dishonest about eels.

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