I was wondering if anyone has come across any explanations from religious folks, whether they are of a Christian, Islamic or Jewish background? Actually even from the non Abrahamic religions? Whenever I have asked anyone they can't give me anything that makes sense.
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Hello,
Welcome to our republic, I hope we will have constructive discussion with you.
To answer you honestly... No, especially from the Bible religions, if you think our purpose of life is to praise and serve a celestial despot, I think you ought to think twice.
Thank you, much appreciated.
I completely agree with you and I find it funny how that is the be all and end all of the reasoning for people who follow.
Agreed Sam. However, if you look at it in the sense of level of knowledge, it is easy to understand how people back then believed and followed religion in the first place. With little knowledge to base reasoning on, there is no wonder why conclusions of a deity were put forth. These days however, are a different story. We know many more things about reality, and no longer have the need to conclude a god. But, so many still irrationally believe. A self imposed ignorance which perpetuates a mass delusion. As a species, we are just not that ignorant any more. It will take awhile, because of herd mentality, our old safety in numbers genetics, but slowly more people will see the light, so to speak, as we innately evolve. Outside forces may help this enlightenment more quickly as well...look at science...it is erasing religion as we speak. Science seeks truth and religion can't survive truth. So, really, these days, other than sheer stupidity, there is no reason for religion. As far as a religious reason for our existence, there is none. People believe because the herd does...they continue to do so out of fear of the religion they believe...dumb fucks.
Very well put. The thing that gets to me is how in this day and age people can follow a religion or ideology with blind faith and not question it. Just accept it. It blows my mind that these people don't question anything and follow herd mentality, as you so accurately put.
I could somewhat accept there reasons if they had any no matter how stupid but so far all I've come across is blind faith and stupidity.
Agreed Sam...I do not understand faith either. I do know that once your memory learns from an otherwise truthful and trusted voice, any other person that does not follow the same belief, is rejected without thought. This bias is irrational by nature. The other end of this bias is that anyone that follows the same belief is automatically accepted, without thought. One thing for sure, failure in reason is a byproduct of the religious...of that we can't deny.
IamSam,
"The thing that gets to me is how in this day and age people can follow a religion or ideology with blind faith and not question it. Just accept it. It blows my mind that these people don't question anything and follow herd mentality, as you so accurately put."
A lot of people who claim to be religious don't actually believe any of it, and that includes members of the clergy. They are simply in it for the money, power, and status that they get from it. People might go to church just to be around other people as part of a routine. They don't necessarily socialize with other people in the meeting and may not even speak to them.
Religions are a very big business and employs an untold number of people. Those people, architects, real estate salespeople, book publishers, singers, entertainers, construction workers, clothing manufacturers and designers, etc., are not going to bad mouth religions even if they hate them because they make their money off of them. So they go along in order to get along. Even the current Pope doesn't believe in any of it. Only a few fanatics actually believe.
Just remember, not one person in 2,000 years has ever believed enough in the Jesus character to have ever done what he supposedly said that a person with faith could do, and that includes the writer who wrote that.
"Just remember, not one person in 2,000 years has ever believed enough in the Jesus character to have ever done what he supposedly said that a person with faith could do, and that includes the writer who wrote that."
That is deep and you hit the nail right on the head. Theists should really reflect on that. Food for thought.
In Spirit "Theists should really reflect on that. Food for thought."
>Will you reflect on it though? It appear prima facie that you are subjectively separating yourself from all other theists, a pretty arrogant stance. Based on what one wonders? Not the vapid rhetoric you keep posting on here that's for sure.
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In Spirit
MY VIEW
I am a/an Non Atheist
So you're a theist according to you, are you reflecting, what does this reflection suggest to you?
Sheldon
Please don't assume that you know me. You hardly know anything about me as I about you.
As for whether I am reflecting on it...you're damn right I am.
Just because I found that statement deep doesn't make me anything. There have been interesting comments that I see from atheists about atheism that make me think. That doesn't make me atheist. I don't have to be a theist to reflect on theism just as I don't have to be an atheist to reflect on atheism. This is how switches sometimes happen from one side to the other.
I assumed nothing, so do please read my posts before responding.
The rest is a long tedious list of straw man assertions I never made. You state you're a theist in your profile, QED. Did you forget you're a theist or something? This was your claim:
"Theists should really reflect on that. Food for thought."
So, have you applied this to yourself as a theist? Have you reflected on it, and if so what cogent ideas has it produced? No assumptions are being made here except by you.
Sheldon
If in some other post I say "Atheists should reflect on that. Does that make me atheist?
We already had a discussion about labels Sheldon and about the choices I had when I registered and how confused I was about what category I belong in. I lived my whole life unaware about labels. I think that merits a pause for trying to understand them.
I haven't divulged the full extent of my beliefs yet and it may, according to labels, fall under theism, I don't know. I had stated early on that I am not big on labels or their definitions but getting to understand them better. Patience
then why keep insisting I am making assumptions when in point of fact the error was yours in your profile? You stated you're not an atheist in your profile and therefore are a theist by definition, I made no assumptions as none were needed. This has nothing to do with labels either.
I'll try one last time...and use bullet points
(1) You said this>>>"Theists should really reflect on that. Food for thought."
(2) You also claim to be a theist in your profile.
(3) So I asked this>>>So, have you applied this to yourself as a theist? Have you reflected on it, and if so what cogent ideas has it produced?
My question makes no assumptions about anything. You either believe a deity exists or you don't, they're logical negations of each other. Either way no assumption or labelling were made by me.
Sheldon
"(2) You also claim to be a theist in your profile."
In my profile choices I chose OTHER under theism because as I had stated several times, I would have preferred option 3 which does not exist. Not being big on labels and their definitions I had to choose something to register.
"(3) So I asked this>>>So, have you applied this to yourself as a theist? Have you reflected on it, and if so what cogent ideas has it produced?:
My reply was food for thought. Take a bite, taste it, chew it, repeat several times. Allow it to go through my digestive system. The end result might be crap as the analogy chosen leads to that end. We'll just have to wait and see. Once again. Patience.
I never had 1 day deadlines on exams and I won't impose that on myself. Science doesn't give flash results in one day either.
"So I asked this>>>So, have you applied this to yourself AS A THEIST?"....... Either way no assumption or labelling were made by me. Note your assumption in caps ( I put them in caps not you).
Like I said, maybe I am and maybe I'm not. You might very well know better than I, if I had divulged my entire story, thoughts,experiences, tests, opinions, beliefs et al. But I haven't done that because I understand that atheists need evidence and I know I have none to provide at this moment, perhaps never will. Only until I can properly express it so that it can be scrutinized under scientific methods would it be wise to post that thread. Until then, once again, patience.
"In my profile choices I chose OTHER under theism2
No, in your profile you chose other under beliefs, under My view - you chose I am a/an Non-Atheist.
" Note your assumption in caps ( I put them in caps not you)."
Except it wasn't an assumption as you said you are a non-atheist in your profile. Now you claim this was incorrect, that's not my assumption that is your error. Why do you keep repeating this lie?
"Like I said, maybe I am and maybe I'm not."
Irrelevant to your claim that I made an assumption, which isn't true, as I only repeated what you had said in your profile.
Sheldon
"..."In my profile choices I chose OTHER under theism 2 No, in your profile you chose other under beliefs, under My view - you chose I am a/an Non-Atheist."
You are absolutely correct. In my haste to respond I did not double check. And my belief was "other"
"Why do you keep repeating this lie?"
The remark is not made with deliberate attempt to deceive therefore not a lie. Perception is not always our best friend. That goes for me too. I'm not good with labels to say the least Sheldon. Does that put this to rest?
Correct me if I am wrong. Are you under the impression that atheists are my foes? Are you under the impression that I have no atheist friends? My perception may deceive me, I've already admitted to that. You can help clarify this.
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You claimed I had assumed you were an atheist, I had not, and that was the lie I was referring to. In answer to your question I make no assumptions about what friends you may or may not have, nor about what those friends may or may not believe.
All I did was ask a question based on what you had claimed in your profile choices. All you had to do was explain you'd made an error in those choices, rather than imply I was making assumptions to try and label you.
Sheldon, it is obvious to me that when this "In Spirit" person logged in, the tactic was not to be pinned down. We see this constantly, using this dishonest debating tactic of not taking any position or committing to anything. That way, they always leave themselves an escape route.
This "In Spirit" person does not understand that this is not about scoring points in a debate, but being honest and having a discussion on theism. Almost all atheists in this debate are being open and honest, we have no problem discussing our personal positions.
Heck, even now I have no idea what this person believes in.
David
"Almost all atheists in this debate are being open and honest, we have no problem discussing our personal positions."
"Almost all....." that's a good starting point to continue
"Heck, even now I have no idea what this person believes in."
Most honest remarks I have heard in awhile
We see so many theists adopt this new tactic of shifting the burden of proof as well, that I am suspicious every time I encounter an apologist who tries to imply agnosticism is some sort of halfway point between belief and un-belief. Or who try to insist that atheism is an assertion that requires evidence.
When we talk about knowing or knowledge it is epistemologically impossible to be 100% certain about anything, so when they try to paint objective facts as if they are on a par with faith based religious beliefs as catholicray has tried to do, I just want to laugh out loud.
As you say, too many theists come here and debate without any integrity, though of course unevidenced beliefs in the superstitions, make it necessary to be vague and non-committal, rather than being precise and definitive which would be impossible without sufficient objective evidence.
In Spirit, really, deep? let me change just one noun and you can offer me an opinion on how deep this is .....
In Spirit's picture
"Just remember, not one person in 2,000 years has ever believed enough in the Apollo character to have ever done what he supposedly said that a person with faith could do, and that includes the writer who wrote that."
You are not finding anything deep, you are digging a hole and filling it with religion.
David.
You'll have to be more specific. I didn't understand at all what you are trying to convey.
In Spirit, the "jesus" or "god" word carries a lot of baggage. And for you, just the thought of jesus invokes all kinds of miraculous revelations, while the truth is that all of it is unevidenced tales.
Do you assume that just reminding us of the story of resurrection will make is bow our heads in shame and run to the nearest church to make penance for our wicked thoughts?
Maybe this jesus dude lived, but IMO he was just a malcontent crime boss/pimp who could not hold a job. And for all the "miracle" stories, each and every one have zero evidence proving they happened.
David
Lol.....Where did you ever get the notion that I believe in the biblical version of Jesus? I know I have posted a quote from him but I have seen atheists make biblical quotes as well and that doesn't mean they also believe in the biblical Jesus anymore than I do
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@In Spirit
"Where did you ever get the notion that I believe in the biblical version of Jesus?"
In another post I stated ...
" it is obvious to me that when this "In Spirit" person logged in, the tactic was not to be pinned down. We see this constantly, using this dishonest debating tactic of not taking any position or committing to anything. That way, they always leave themselves an escape route."
And you wonder why some of us treat you with disdain?
Do you believe in any deity or deities, or in anything supernatural?
If you're not an atheist, then by definition that would make a theist, so if this is an error in your profile are you saying you are in fact an atheist?
It's fine to not know if a deity exists, they're generally defined in a sloppy imprecise fashion that makes the concept ultimately unfalsifiable, this is of course deliberate, but how can you not know what you do or do not believe? That makes no sense.
@Diotrephes,
Your response is a duplication of my thoughts on religion. I have believed for a long time that many just go along for the hel of it. If they truly believed, I think they would live a bit differently, If I truly believed in hell and all that other shit, I would be afraid to leave the house! You are spot on!
Diotrephes. I know a lot people that believe in hell. Most of those people left their house today. Surprised?
Hell is linked to Christianity. Christians believe in Jesus Christ for salvations. So there would be no reason that they would fear death. Hope that helps.
Pulsarone,
"Hell is linked to Christianity. Christians believe in Jesus Christ for salvations. So there would be no reason that they would fear death. Hope that helps."
If Christians don't fear death why do they panic when there is a church shooting?
@Pulsarone
"Christians believe in Jesus Christ for salvations. So there would be no reason that they would fear death."
On the surface that would appear to be a rational statement. But observational data contradicts that position.
Many christians have stated that one primary reason they cling to their faith is the fear of death. And many fall back on Pascal's wager in the belief it is a sound argument. My father was very devout, he was even a Mason. But he was absolutely terrified at the thought of death.
And just by observing the actions of christians, they lead the pack when charging for the escape doors when faced with imminent death.
Hey there diotrephes. I am interested in your comment on religious people living differently. I am assuming you mean better. Hmm. Humans are not perfect. It doesn’t matter if you’re an atheist or not. Atheist don’t live differently in a good or bad sense. Same with religious people. Cause we are all human beings.
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