1) God gives us free will because He chooses to have a relationship with us.
2) However, if you choose to reject his invitation then you are exercising your freedom to choose,
3) BUT the Bible explains to us where that rejection originated and also its consequences. People frequently use the "why would a good God allow x,y,z..." to paint God as some sort of sadistic monster, and it is perfectly understandable to have such a reaction to pain and suffering.
4) God hates it too. But when mankind deliberately choose to go their own way and abandon his Law, his morality, his ethics, and his value of every human being, in favour of relativistic elastic morality which robs human life of its value and dignity, God cannot interfere, because he values our liberty as individuals.
5) The remedy to human selfishness, greed, corruption and immorality has been declared in His word and is available to ANYONE who decides to jump off the worldly bandwagon and turn to Jesus, who redeems mankind, restores our relationship with our Creator, and enables us to live according to HIS will and not our own, which is desperately flawed and corrupt.
6) Tragedies happen all the time, both natural disasters and those perpetrated by human beings. Both are the result of man's original sin. Adam had been given a mandate by God to steward the earth and all in it, but when he abrogated that responsibility he handed the earth over to Satan on a plate. This had far reaching consequences both for the natural world and for humanity itself.
7) Natural disasters, diseases, wars and man made religions that leave out on the one true God in favour of gods made in man's own image...not to mention the sense of alienation and inner loneliness, the lie of insignificance, the pride and greed and corruption of worldly politics AND religion.
8) That is why Jesus said the whole world was under the power of the evil one, but to fear not, because he had overcome it.
9) He could say this because, being God, he is beyond the restrictions of time, and because God had always had this redemptive plan in place. When the Lord's Prayer has the words "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as in heaven" it is a prayer that every Christian prays, that their own lives will reflect God's kingdom values and spread that kingdom wherever we are.
10) What are God's kingdom values? Matthew chapter 5 shows that God's order is very different from the way things are run for much of the time.
11) It is NOT the survival of the fittest as humanity views "fitness" but only those who are born of the Spirit, who receive Christ as Lord and Saviour, that are made fit for his kingdom.
12) John chapter 3 verse 16-18 again reminds us that this invitation is for WHOEVER will receive him. That is the start of our restoration to God's image. That is the start of rescuing this world from sinking ever deeper into a moral cesspool.
Come on see what you have?? Bet ya you will see this and back down.
Subscription Note:
Choosing to subscribe to this topic will automatically register you for email notifications for comments and updates on this thread.
Email notifications will be sent out daily by default unless specified otherwise on your account which you can edit by going to your userpage here and clicking on the subscriptions tab.
Boring!
ha didn't I tell ya... they will see this and back down.I knew it. Any sort of challenge you back down. tut tut.
Disappointing
@ Mellissa
I agree with chimp3. It's not like we haven't heard this tune before.
Can you instead tell us why you believe in your god?
@ Chimp ...Agreed.......
The usual drivel..... but propagated by a somewhat overly proud ,haughty and bellicose proselytizer .... apparently looking for a "fight"..
"Come on see what you have?? Bet ya you will see this and back down."
a true christian paladin...... or should that be ...yet another true christian paladin.... or just another "drive by..."
No, I sincerely would like an atheists opinion on this. Some points about what I said.
Your OP points:
1. Prove it
2. Prove it
3. Prove it
4. Prove it
5. Prove it
6. Prove it
7. Prove it
8. Prove it
9. Prove it
10. Prove it
11. Prove it
12. Prove it
Could you be more specific and relate your comment to what I said :/
You made assertions, prove them. Give me data that show your assertions are fact.
Very likely, Jesus never existed.
@Melliessa.......
Very well.....come little man....let us exchange a lance or two....
"I sincerely would like an atheists opinion on this"
Why...?
Oh and an atheists opinion on what...exactly....?
Which bit of your mythology is concerning you.......exactly?
Why? because I genuinly would like to know. That is why.
On what I said above.
All of it.. which is why I bullet pointed it so It would be easier to respond to.
So...its well past midnight here.....and I'm off to get some sleep.....
Well, Melliesa, I do hope you retain and find comfort in your convictions for the rest of your mortality, and into your immortality. I'm happy enough to leave off with the former as I see if factually unfolding and disappearing behind me.
By the way...
http://mama.indstate.edu/users/nizrael/jesusrefutation.html
http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arian_controversy
http://www.bidstrup.com/bible2.htm
I wonder if Melliesa will recognize responses as what they are? Responses! Boring!
@Melliessa
"People frequently use the "why would a good God allow x,y,z..." to paint God as some sort of sadistic monster, and it is perfectly understandable to have such a reaction to pain and suffering. "
You assert that pain and suffering are the result of human immorality and selfishness. That implies that humans are the sole cause of pain and suffering in this world, which clearly we are not. We have to take the blame for Hiroshima, Nanking, Dresden, Mylai, and so on, but what about the Boxing Day tsunami, the massive earthquake and tsunami in northern Japan, polio, smallpox? What about all the innocent infants killed in these disasters. What about the poor dinosaurs wiped out by the meteor? Or was that before god's time?
The standard answer we get from god-botherers about all this mega-suffering is that it was all part of god's great eternal plan. If that's the case, then either god is a sadistic, murderous, disease-spreading, torturing, serial killer, or else he's powerless to help us because he's too busy not existing. I've chosen the latter as the only sensible option. What about you?
Thats such a good point I hadn't thought before how damaging the blaming of natural phenomena on sinful people, the way it can be twisted into "human" fault... But yes you are right... thanks for the insight
@Melliessa:
"Tragedies happen all the time, both natural disasters and those perpetrated by human beings. Both are the result of man's original sin."
Sorry. I should have read this bit from your post before replying, because you've provided the answer to some of my questions. Every time Krakatoa blows up or the earth moves, we're being punished for something that a mythical being allegedly ate a few thousand years ago. Well I didn't do that. I wasn't there. I wasn't even born then. I would also argue that god is more liable for what supposedly happened than Satan. According to the fairy story, Adam and Eve, including all of their mental foibles and innate curiosity, were created by god. God gave them a thirst for knowledge. Eve just did what was natural according to the way she was put together by god. God also created Satan/Lucifer. Therefore, god is guilty. I rest my case.
Of course, original sin is contemptible horsefeathers.
Nice hat, by the way.
@melliessa
First, you need to prove my existence.
Second, you need to establish the veracity of the bible.
Third, you need to show that your theology is correct.
"... and man made religions that leave out on the one true God in favour of gods made in man's own image..."
Considering each religion is a set of morals and rules with a deity or deities to worship, and is thus no different from yours, how could you prove that the One True God is not man made as well?
I'm saying this as a former monotheist who came to the realization that all religions are similar, and thus have to be man-made.
1. Prove there is a god.
First things first, then and only then can you make bold challenges. Otherwise, it's just a huge waste of time!
Oh yeah, FUCK the bible! It makes no sense, is hypocritical, contradicts itself, and isn't even close to factual.
@ Mellissa
1) God gives us free will because He chooses to have a relationship with us.
No, No, no……..No one gives us free will…it is ours by inalienable right….it is we who seize it…… it is not in the gift of any mythic imaginings…… The ability to choose is ours …..it is as inbuilt as the ability to think…to reason ….to dream….We choose ..We decide….. There is no requirement for any deity.
2) However, if you choose to reject his invitation then you are exercising your freedom to choose,
There is no “invitation”….there is no one to issue an “invitation”….there is nothing to reject…….possibly merely a choice to be made….but even that is not certain.
3) BUT the Bible explains to us where that rejection originated and also its consequences. People frequently use the "why would a good God allow x,y,z..." to paint God as some sort of sadistic monster, and it is perfectly understandable to have such a reaction to pain and suffering.
And this is where the whole rotten edifice falls over…. Collapsing onto its own corrupted foundations.
The bible is nothing but the fabricated imaginings of generations of priests ,preachers ,prelates and primates…..each pursuing their own small self serving agenda for their own small self serving purposes.
Read the bloody thing….it is full of errors ,fallacies contradictions and downright lies.
Plus you are making the same old error….believing that those who do not “believe” do so because of some unfulfilled prayer ,the result of some great personal tragedy .
4) God hates it too. But when mankind deliberately choose to go their own way and abandon his Law, his morality, his ethics, and his value of every human being, in favour of relativistic elastic morality which robs human life of its value and dignity, God cannot interfere, because he values our liberty as individuals.
Whose law, whose morality, whose ethics ,whose idea of human value…?
There is no deity….. the so called morals ,ethics and values you seem to attach such value to were written ,amended and added to over centuries by scribes ,priests and prelates…. To reinforce their claims to special privileges and powers derived originally from ignorant ,superstitious ,cattle sacrificing, nomadic, bronze age, goat herders.
5) The remedy to human selfishness, greed, corruption and immorality has been declared in His word and is available to ANYONE who decides to jump off the worldly bandwagon and turn to Jesus, who redeems mankind, restores our relationship with our Creator, and enables us to live according to HIS will and not our own, which is desperately flawed and corrupt.
So…this is the “remedy to human selfishness, greed, corruption and immorality” is it…. Surprisingly ineffective if you consider the state of the world today after having access to the “remedy” for around 2000 years…… don’t you think..?
This Jesus you refer to…seems to be a bit of a “busted flush” wouldn’t you say ? But then trying to restore our supposed relationship with a non existent “creator” is a bit of a non starter….isn’t it..? Particularly when this Jesus is supposed to be one and the same as “the creator”.
I would suggest that there is nothing too much wrong with humankinds will…..in my view it is your imagined deity that is flawed and corrupted.
6) Tragedies happen all the time, both natural disasters and those perpetrated by human beings. Both are the result of man's original sin. Adam had been given a mandate by God to steward the earth and all in it, but when he abrogated that responsibility he handed the earth over to Satan on a plate. This had far reaching consequences both for the natural world and for humanity itself.
Here you go again …discounting the fact that doubt and denial come from logical reasoning…..always looking for some petty disappointment as a trigger for the rejection of your supposed deity.
By the by…….just where do you get the “stewardship” crap from…..your mythology says a deity…(not too sure its your deity or not..) gives man “dominion” over the world…. No mention of stewardship….
Oh…yes…Adam….nah…sorry….check out any article on DNA research..…. although I quite expect you to ignore this and continue with your borrowed Mesopotamian legends….
And of course…just as there are no deities….there are no demons either…hence no satan.
7) Natural disasters, diseases, wars and man made religions that leave out on the one true God in favour of gods made in man's own image...not to mention the sense of alienation and inner loneliness, the lie of insignificance, the pride and greed and corruption of worldly politics AND religion.
Word salad….random phrases ,words and unformed ,unfinished ideas just “dumped” on the page . Do you have even the slightest idea of what this paragraph is supposed to mean…?
8) That is why Jesus said the whole world was under the power of the evil one, but to fear not, because he had overcome it.
Jesus said that did he..? You sure…..? and which Jesus would this be…?
9) He could say this because, being God, he is beyond the restrictions of time, and because God had always had this redemptive plan in place. When the Lord's Prayer has the words "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as in heaven" it is a prayer that every Christian prays, that their own lives will reflect God's kingdom values and spread that kingdom wherever we are.
Oh yes…the lords prayer….part of the brainwashing programme inflicted upon children on a daily basis…..
Our Father, ….
"Implied group dynamic/peer pressure.
Paternal parent, unquestioned authority figure."
Who art in heaven, …
"Above you ,in a position to see all that you do. Although separate and unable to be questioned."
Hallowed be thy Name. …
"Worship him. No questions."
Thy kingdom come. …
"Promise/threat of future dominion."
Thy will be done, …
"Do not oppose/question things."
On earth as it is in heaven. …
"Everywhere (no escape in this life or the next)."
Give us this day our daily bread. …
"Plea for sustenance (reinforcing the belief that we are not capable of looking after ourselves)"
And forgive us our trespasses, …
"Asking for non specific forgiveness, reinforcing self depreciation and guilt. "
As we forgive those who trespass against us. …
"Not seeking redress for wrongs suffered ,
don’t rock the boat."
And lead us not into temptation, …
"reinforcing the belief we cant look after ourselves"
But deliver us from evil. …
"reinforcing the belief we cant look after ourselves"
For thine is the kingdom, …
"reinforcing the belief that we are weak
its Gods Kingdom not ours."
and the power, …
"reinforcing the belief we are powerless"
and the glory, …
"reinforcing the belief that we are feeble
and insignificant."
for ever and ever. …
"for all time , no remission"
Amen.
10) What are God's kingdom values? Matthew chapter 5 shows that God's order is very different from the way things are run for much of the time.
Ahh…good old Matthew…… possibly the most corrupt gospel of them all…(although it is a tight run thing…)
11) It is NOT the survival of the fittest as humanity views "fitness" but only those who are born of the Spirit, who receive Christ as Lord and Saviour, that are made fit for his kingdom.
No…this is more of the deprecating cobblers put out to try to reduce humanities self esteem…..you are not fit for salvation…unless you embrace my particular variety of the Christian myth…(odd that there are so many versions…)
12) John chapter 3 verse 16-18 again reminds us that this invitation is for WHOEVER will receive him. That is the start of our restoration to God's image. That is the start of rescuing this world from sinking ever deeper into a moral cesspool.
No…just more attempted self justification for trying to contaminate others with the virus that has destroyed your own life…
"god gives us free will" That is an assertion. Prove that a god or your god exists. That would be the first barrier anyone on this site taking your assertion seriously. Then, assuming you can prove that -- which I sincerely doubt -- we can find out how you know something about what this god does or does not ''give''
Ignoring first part of your claim (you have no proof god exists)
With our freewill and self determination we re-wrote gods societal "moral laws" and punishments we revised law and punishment and created secular civil law that valued human rights while distancing itself from scripture and inhumane "punishments from god".
Otherwise we would still be stoning people for adultery, dragging non virgins to fathers doorsteps to kill in front of her family and killing disobedient children along with every-other horror scripture could think of.
Burning
Stoning
Death by the sword or spear
CRUCIFIXION
Sawing asunder
Pounding in a mortar
Retaliation
Scourging with thorns
plucking out hair
mutilation
beating, on a wheel-like frame
Drowning
Strangling
All I can say is thanks to self determination we are free to find morality and human rights
Which religion never gave us.
God didn't give free will (He is unproven)
But if he did exist - we won our freedom buy ignoring his cruelty in scripture and re-writing the law in terms of human rights and fairness
The reality is we gained our freewill ourselves and were able to see the wrongness of the laws made by other unjust men.
Really? So everything in the bible is moral? Including the mentality that it is ok to own slaves in Exodus? Please. Don't bring the bible into this. The bible is a book that entails talking snakes, grown men living in whales, and some bush that talked to a man. Also, if in fact we are creations of God, he created us the way we are, so he would understand why we act the way that we do more than anyone. How could a creator be offended by what we think if he created us?
Oh he is offended we have free will we lessend his grip of terror (Presuming its a christian god, and that a god exsists) Secular society rewrote his/her/its awful laws/punishments as soon as they were able to loosen the reins of the church Yes humans found fault with those "heavenly laws"!
But not to worry not many christians will be going to heaven since they also arn't fulfilling the scriptures properly
Sin is defined in the Bible as the breaking of God's Law... jesus still agreed with the scripture - so why not they? who are they to consider human rights have any place in our society over gods law...
and such an angry god...
sending us to hell if we were born before he arrived on earth
sending us to hell if we were born to a family with the wrong religion...
sending us to hell if we are the wrong denomination....
basically sending us to hell...
and if living with the scriptures as being the law... living in hell
religion...fun times
n.obody knows if god exists or not they have hypotheses theories but not facts.the question continues, how can you believe any one then who would send people to hell. And yes the bible is a fallible book with mistakes and contradictions and which is the right god or gods? is it zeus or Apollo the greek and pagan gods Jupiter, etc is it Christianity or islam if you insist Christianity is it protestant roman catholic or greek orthodox Russian orthodox why all this different beliefs? Why is God so hard to find, look at the suffering in the world do you really believe deep down in your being that a benevolent creator has a reason to allow people to suffer?.
Point 1. God gives us free will. Response: Prove it... starting with prove that a god exists or troll away
free will only applies to where you live since cuba is in the news where were the political prisoners freedom of choice? People who decent they were led off to prison or tortured or many times killed. Look at the boat people how mist died trying to make the 90 mile journey.so then is it the old conversation stopper is it free will or determinism?
Free Will does not exist. it just feels like it does.
Pages