The problem of evil in a cosmos supposedly crafted by an infinitely loving and most merciful deity has plagued many people throughput history when they've turned an unflinching eye toward theism. To date the most used apologetic for this is that whatever god the speaker holds to be the true god, gave humanity the choice to believe in it or suffer the most depraved shocks to the mind and body that could befall a mortal being. I find this defense of the notion of theism flimsy at best.
Over the course of humanities current, known, time in existence, over roughly 5 billion gestating infants have died unable to form the intent to choose a god, or choose any thing. That's also post natal children who've died from all manner slow excruciating deaths by disease, by having their brains bashed in by pre-bronze age invaders, by freezing to death on treks to lands they'd reach only for burial. In the face of the fact that these deaths and pains involved no possibility of being connected to choosing sin or another god, the free will position doesn't hold up. But let's go a bit further...
To say that our choice freely given to humanity, by god, is the reason that being allows people's moms to have their intestines slowly eaten by cancers, is to say (proudly) that your version of god is a remorseless psychopath. Whether theist, atheist, deist, pantheist, etc. the large majority of you if it were in your power to immediately stop suffering of such degree, would. I have no doubt of it, never have. Now as the "it's free will," argument is designed to protect the notion of a benevolent god created a world we puny humans sinned in, it fails again once you take this into account.
But I could be wrong, so let's debate and discuss it.
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Free will is the devil, faith is the blessed. Any calamity that befalls man or causes him to be plundered is the free will category. It doesn't have to make sense because those who have faith don't need to work out those minor details. It's only the faith thing they're concerned with. As far as the free will thing goes they adopt a "better you than me" stance.
Those who have faith? Hmm, that's a large category of theist Pitar. Not all of the people that still believe ignore such details and not all atheist have thought about it.
Haha, here we go again :) I remember debating over this in the last thread I started. But I enjoy talking to y'all (it's fun) so here we go:
Well, those infants are going to Heaven :) I'm not worried about that even if I hate the fact they died.
And the world used to be perfect. Death, suffering, and the like entered once WE (humans) rebelled against GOD. Ask ANY good judge, when someone does something wrong they need to be punished/corrected. A righteous God CAN'T ignore wrong, just like a respectable judge can't.
However, God doesn't plan to let this go on for eternity. One day He will come back and right the wrongs WE'VE made.
God gave us free will and we ran with it to do what we wanted :) It hasn't really gone well for us.
According to your own mythology (the bible), God is the source of all things. That means he is the source of every disease, every crime, every death, ever wrong, every single evil act that has ever happened...
Of course there is the other possibility that the old testament is just a collection of cultural legends, some of which might be accurate, some of which clearly are not; which explains the horrible inconsistencies (they are different legends put into the same volume, of course there is going to be inconsistencies!)
1) God created sharp objects (neutral, can be used for good or bad); we decide to use them to kill people. God created us with intelligence (neutral, can be used for good or bad) ; and we use it to create weapons to kill people. Etc.
God is the source of all things in that He is the one who has given us the abilities, intelligence, and materials to do good or evil. We can only do good or evil because God allows it. Once we rebelled, He allowed us to face the consequences of our wrongs (wars, etc.). He also allowed nature to start going awry.
2) And what you mentioned is definitely a possibility :) But does it explain the amazing CONSISTENCIES over thousands of years with different authors? Does it explain the prophecies that have come to pass (like Israel becoming a nation once again... thousands of years later! I'd like to see ancient Greece come back like that)? Does it explain all the archeological evidence for the accuracy of Old Testament history?
http://www.str.org/articles/the-old-testament-has-been-archeologically-v...
I know atheists aren't fans of the Bible... but it has its credentials :) There's a reason why scholars take the Bible seriously and not the Quran or the Mormon scriptures.
Ilovequestions - "Does it explain the prophecies that have come to pass (like Israel becoming a nation once again... thousands of years later! I'd like to see ancient Greece come back like that)"
It just happened. Yeah. I just declared my independence, and I'm calling my nation "ancient Greece".
@Nyarlathotep's comment about Greece
In understand you are being slightly smart with your comment, but I'll answer it anyway:
Are your descendants greek? Is your bloodline greek?
Was Greece prophecies thousands of years ago to come back into existence after being scattered throughout the world?
Is there a worldwide exodus of greeks who are coming to join your country?
If you switch "greek/greece" with "Jew/Israel" in these questions, millions of Jews could say "yes". Yep, nothing in the world compares to this prophecy that had ancient Israel being scattered throughout the world and then coming back together to form a nation. This was prophecied, ladies and gentleman. Hopefully you all ask me to back it up with verses (*hint hint* pleasssseeeeee ask me) that were written thousands of years ago.
So yes, the Bible has some incredible credentials :)
ilovequestions -[link to apologists website]
yeah, i checked that site out. Here are some gems:
Darwinism Is Anti-Science
http://www.str.org/quickthoughts/darwinism-is-anti-science
Evolution - Philosophy, Not Science
http://www.str.org/articles/evolution---philosophy-not-science
I.D. Is Science
http://www.str.org/blog/i.d.-is-science
and my personal fav:
Study under G̲r̲e̲a̲t̲ ̲M̲i̲n̲d̲s̲ at the D̲i̲s̲c̲o̲v̲e̲r̲y̲ ̲I̲n̲s̲t̲i̲t̲u̲t̲e̲
http://www.str.org/blog/study-under-great-minds-at-the-discovery-institute
----------------------------------------------
Yeah, I wouldn't take anything you read on that site too seriously...
@Nyarlathotep's comment on the credibility of "Stand to Reason"
Ad hominem much? If "Stand to Reason" told you 2+2=4, would you doubt that?
But anyways, here are many other websites that say that report much of the same thing.
http://www.equip.org/article/biblical-archaeology-factual-evidence-to-su...
https://www.probe.org/archaeology-and-the-old-testament/
https://bible.org/article/archaeology-and-old-testament
http://www.sciencemeetsreligion.org/blog/2014/06/is-the-bible-supported-...
You can go through those and commit the ad hominem fallacy again if you so desire. My point still stands:
The Bible has amazing credentials (due to prophecy and archeology) that is UNMATCHED. You can dismiss the Bible as just a bunch of legends... but most serious scholars do not. They go to it because they know, AT THE WORST, it is partially accurate.
One must wonder what you think about dinosaurs.
@Travis
They are cool :) I wish I could see a live T-Rex :/
Do you really believe they were in the garden of eden?
@Travis
Umm, I wasn't there so I can't say for sure. I would say probably :) The garden didn't cover the entire earth so they could've been somewhere else haha
I just wonder, because many species was born and died before we came around, which rather decimates the idea that death did not exist before Adam and Eve supposedly sinned.
Death didn't occur until sin entered the world. I believe there were dinosaurs in the garden of Eden and they all ate plants and the "serpent" could have been a dinosaur because before being cursed (for deceiving Eve) it had legs. I believe evolution is guessing and that is why it is called a "theory" but God, our Creator personally told Moses who wrote it down for us in Genesis and His Word is sure.
"Death didn't occur until sin entered the world."
Considering it has been shown beyond all reasonable doubt that other species existed prior to ours, and that those species went extinct, I don't see how that is a supportable claim.
"I believe there were dinosaurs in the garden of Eden..."
Which needs must push the timeline of your creation story back a few hundred million years.
"...they all ate plants..."
Even the ones without molars, eh? I am sure they all had saddles and liked to snuggle too. For clarification, the Flintstones was never meant to be a documentary...
"...the "serpent" could have been a dinosaur because before being cursed (for deceiving Eve) it had legs."
Some snakes are born with legs, it is called atavism, and expression of primitive gene structures that only evolution explains.
"I believe evolution is guessing and that is why it is called a "theory"..."
Really? I overestimated you, I never thought you would pull out this old canard. In science, a Theory(note the capital T) is a tested and verified explanation of a specific set of FACTS. Evolution is a FACT, on par with gravity, because we can observe it. The Theory of Evolution attempts to explain the observable fact of evolution, it proposes they whys and hows of what is observed. The Theory has changed quite a great deal from the time of Darwin, because of a number of discoveries and tests that have been performed. For example, Darwin coined the concept of natural selection without actually knowing how heredity worked, as next to nothing was known about genetics in his era. We now know that heredity is caused by genetics, and that all offspring have a degree of variation from its parents genetic material, some of which get passed on to its own offspring.
We know and can observe changes in allele frequencies across populations of organisms, and have often been able to determine the cause. Whether it be natural, sexual, or artificial selection; or just plain environmental pressure, we do actually have a pretty clear indicator of why certain traits tend to spread through populations. We also know that change is cumulative, by studying the genomes of organisms we can map how closely related they are, much like we can determine who is the father on Maury Povich.
You don't want to believe it? Fine. At least have the intellectual honesty to stop calling it a guess and pretending that all Theories are guesses, it is insulting.
"God, our Creator personally told Moses who wrote it down for us in Genesis and His Word is sure."
Hardly anyone, aside from hardline fundamentalists, actually argue that Moses wrote Genesis anymore. It is nearly universally accepted among even Christian scholars that it was a combination of works from multiple authors, so even your own side would argue this point against you, making this claim rather foolhardy against someone who doubts your Moses ever even existed.
Ronda believes God by faith in what He said------- "Death didn't occur until sin entered the world."
The Pragmatic believes by faith in what others said -----"Considering it has been shown beyond all reasonable doubt that other species existed prior to ours, and that those species went extinct, I don't see how that is a supportable claim."
Neither one of us were there. We all believe in something, I choose to believe in Jesus.
Also I wanted to say that even if hell and heaven didn't exist, though I know without a doubt they do, I would still choose to obey what God said because since He is our Creator He still knows how we work best and I can clearly see so much pain in this world comes from those who are doing the opposite of what God said to do or not do.
But again we all have a choice and please note that whatever we choose now, we will ALL one day see Jesus coming from the sky and then the choice we have made will stand.
1. I am not The Pragmatic, though I don't mind you confusing us very much, as he seems like a fairly reasonable person.
2. I wasn't just told by others that species existed before ours, it has been demonstrated beyond all reasonable doubt. I know the world is older than ten thousand years-old because it is habitable, and it wouldn't be if the rate of nuclear decay is how it would have to be for your bible to be right. We can see the light of stars over millions of light years away, so they have to have existed millions of years ago, as that is when the light we are seeing today was produced. Everything, everything in our hard won knowledge points to your creation myth being absolutely incorrect, so don't act like our positions are anywhere approaching equal footing.
I actually have demonstrable evidence of my position, you got yours out of a book written before they knew the Earth orbited the Sun, our positions are not comparable in any way.
As the comedian Bill Maher said," The theist has NO RIGHT to put my reasoning on the same shelf as their NON reasoning!" Well said, Bill!!
He is a comedian alright. But God loves you and wants to give you real joy.
The point is you were not there so it can't be beyond all reasonable doubt unless you are believing it by faith, you are still trusting men and what they think about nuclear decay and such. This is still by faith in a man because you or those men have no idea how long the earth had been created by God before He created man on earth. He also created trees not seeds, he created in stages of maturity. He can do whatever He wants. Travis, We all live by faith in one way or another so it is very important Who our faith is in, because it is a matter of life and death and I want you to go to heaven, I really do.
"and I want you to go to heaven, I really do."
I do not believe you. No christian truly believes in heaven.
Only if I see Christians behave in this manner would I even consider that theists truly believe in heaven.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMaK6k4oZ20
What? your words are not making sense. I can say just as easy, I do not believe you. no atheist truly believes there is no God. Only if I see an atheist behave in this manner would I even consider that atheists truly believe there is no god. (My idea of what an atheist should act like video)
I am, maybe you are not mature enough to see the distinction.
yo are making a claim:
"You believe in heaven"
I do not believe that you truly believe in heaven since you do not act like you do.
An atheist position is the default position = lack of belief in a claim.
Thus the atheist is making no claim. By definition he/she is NOT-Theist(A= NOT)
"I do not believe you. no atheist truly believes there is no God."
An agnostic atheist does not believe that there is no theistic god, but lack belief in his existence because not enough evidence was presented to justify the theistic claim. Show the atheist a god and he will believe in it. A baby is an atheist too, he has no opinion of god existence but he is still an atheist since he is a NOT-Theist.
Theist = is a claim
Atheist = a state of being
"The point is you were not there so it can't be beyond all reasonable doubt unless you are believing it by faith"
Yes it can, as a matter of fact it is one of the reasons we actually can be sure beyond almost all reasonable doubt. Had we been there, it would count very little, because first-hand accounts and witness testimony are considered notoriously unreliable and not used as substantive data points in Scientific experimentation and analysis. They actually create REPEATABLE experiments just for that very reason, that way anyone can do it for themselves and document the results, and the process can eliminate perceptual quirks of the individual. ALL of the relevant scientific data points to a planet ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE OLDER than you believe it to be.
"you are still trusting men and what they think about nuclear decay and such."
Nuclear decay is a part of Atomic Theory, which is the explanation of how we and everything else material are composed of atoms, so arguing against it is like arguing against the fact we are composed of atoms. Further, the decay ratio is a function of the rate constant:
Example: A 1.00 g sample of cobalt-60 (59.92 g/mol) has an activity of 1.1 x 10^3 Ci. Can we determine the rate constant?
1. We convert the 1.00 g of sample into number of atoms of cobalt-60 and to convert the activity into numbers of atoms that decay per second:
(1.00 g Co-60)(1 mol Co-60/59.92 g)(6.022 x 10^23 atoms Co-60/mol) = 1.01 x 10^22 atoms
(1.1 x 10^3 Ci)(3.700 x 10^10 atoms/s/Ci) = 4.1 x 10^13 atoms that decay/sec
2. We then use the first-order rate equation to find the rate constant, k
4.1 x 10^13 atoms decaying/sec = k[1.01 x 10^22 atoms]
k = 4.1 x 10^-9^s-1
So, no, you are arguing far above your expertise here. Those of us who actually understand Atomic Theory and Nuclear Physics CAN determine the rate of decay for a given object, moreover we can use MULTIPLE methods to verify our conclusions, but you want to argue that we CAN'T do it because you don't UNDERSTAND it.
"This is still by faith in a man because you or those men have no idea how long the earth had been created by God "
The geological, nuclear(atomic), and even orbital rates in nature act a lot like clocks. We have learned how to read them rather well, whether you WANT to believe it or not, so we actually have a very good idea how long the Earth has been around.
"before He created man on earth."
*Citations needed.
"He also created trees not seeds, he created in stages of maturity."
Ah, this old chestnut. He made everything to appear orders of magnitude older than it actually was? In that case we have every reason to believe that it is older, no reason or evidence to believe that it isn't as old as it appears, so your belief would STILL be founded upon an irrational and unsupportable assertion.
"He can do whatever He wants."
Except, of course, when he can't. I could pull out a list of things that are logically impossible, paradoxes existent for eons, and you would quickly backpedal to "He can do whatever is possible." or "He can do whatever is consistent with his own nature." There are, apparently, limits to the power of your deity; which makes this line of reasoning an exercise in futility. You will claim your god can do things, without being able to show that it actually did anything at all, and never be able to provide a single mechanism for this besides "gods almighty magical powers".
"Travis, We all live by faith in one way or another..."
I suppose you could consider my attachment to evidence and reason based epistemology if you wished, but it would seem a contradiction to its definition, and utterly promote the idea of a hard solipsism.
"...so it is very important Who our faith is in..."
Um, I don't put faith in "who"'s only things I can be pretty damn certain of, so I am not sure what you are even getting at.
"...because it is a matter of life and death..."
I my experience nobody actually avoids death, and even your Jesus didn't, making this statement false at the outset.
"...I want you to go to heaven, I really do."
I am not sure I do. I have yet to hear a very comprehensive and detailed definition of what heaven is supposed to be, exactly. A place with golden streets just sounds stupid and inefficient, so I don't really think I would want to live in a place as logically infuriating as that. Angels, clouds, and harps? No thanks, I am not big on harp music and beds with little to no lumbar support. I have yet to hear a coherent definition of heaven that sounds even vaguely desirable to me, and no matter what I can envision, living in it forever would be torturous and maddening. Sorry, I like the idea of not being, I don't WANT to exist forever. All that is your bag, not mine.
Thank you Travis for your explanations of what you believe. I do appreciate it because I would consider you actually believe I am being deceived somehow when I know you are being deceived by the same serpent in the garden, of course he doesn't want you to believe actual testimonies, his whole goal is to place doubt on God's Word just like he did with Eve. I cannot change your mind but you cannot change mine either because I know God personally. He is my Friend and to me where ever He is will be Heaven. It made me sad when I read your words you don't want to exist forever, though I would not want to live forever in this "fallen" state in this "fallen" world either, but because of my hope in Jesus and what He said, I will be perfect one day and rule with Him in a perfect world with my Friend forever. The old order of things will pass away and He will make all things new and I wish you would be there too because the price has already been paid for you to go and its not what you think, it will be beyond your imagination because look how cool nature is on this planet and we were created to rule. (I am praying for you--for no other reason but because I care) and God knows my heart.
"Thank you Travis for your explanations of what you believe."
No need to thank me, and I talked very little about actual beliefs, more about evidence and mathematics. I "believe" in these things in the same way you "believe" in the sun. They exist, they are objectively real, and they support my position and not yours.
"I do appreciate it because I would consider you actually believe I am being deceived somehow..."
I suppose I do, though I don't claim to know what is deceiving you. I don't claim it is a book, or a person, or even yourself. I don't claim to know things I couldn't possibly know.
"...when I know you are being deceived by the same serpent in the garden..."
So, you claim to know that I am being deceived by a talking snake or mysterious malignant cosmic force...how...quaint...
"...of course he doesn't want you to believe actual testimonies..."
Oh yes, because those are notoriously reliable. I am sure all those fairy and unicorn sightings every year are the REAL deal, and we can just dispense with any actual rational investigation of those testimonies, and we should be looking up to check for aliens because they are more likely than your god.
"...his whole goal is to place doubt on God's Word just like he did with Eve..."
Or, and I know this is a wild notion that just couldn't possibly be the case, we doubt your holy book because it is inconsistent with reality in every avenue in which it could be tested.
"I cannot change your mind..."
Oh? But you could, it wouldn't even be that hard, you would just have to provide some actual real substantive evidence of your claims. That is the goal, that is the only hurdle you need jump, that is the ONLY thing you need do to change my mind. Words are cheap, give me something to validate with the only useful objective methodology we have for determining fact from fantasy, otherwise there is no reason to consider you any different from the Greeks or Vikings. Your god has just as much reasonable evidence as Odin and Zeus, and no amount of faith from you can change that fact.
"...but you cannot change mine either because I know God personally."
I agree, it is impossible to change your mind. You can't reason someone out of a position they hold without reason, and in many cases AGAINST all reason.
"He is my Friend and to me where ever..."
Imaginary friends are like that.
"...He is will be Heaven."
Wait, I thought he was all-powerful, all-knowing, and everywhere? If that be the case than his will be HERE! He would have known what would happen if he created this universe, so this is OBVIOUSLY what he intended all along! Or, perhaps, are you saying he was forced or unable to make it any way he wanted to?
"It made me sad when I read your words you don't want to exist forever..."
Why? I don't. The fact that my existence is fleeting is what gives my existence as much value as it has. If this is nothing but a job interview before eternity, it means little or nothing, and so would my actions and family in this world. Besides, let us assume that you are right? As a PERFECT being, could I ever be truly content or happy with the knowledge that other people are suffering? Could I ever be truly comfortable with the existence of a place like hell? Could I ever countenance the idea that my joy or pleasure was bought with the suffering and eventual sacrifice of another being, even if it was god itself? I would think not... Living in constant guilt and eternally weeping for the damned seem like a pretty shitty time to me.
"...though I would not want to live forever in this "fallen" state in this "fallen" world either"
I am not sure we can really call it that, considering it is exactly as your god must have intended. At wost, the most we could call it is living down to your deities expectations...
"...but because of my hope in Jesus and what He said, I will be perfect one day..."
We will? What use is that? I don't seem to value perfection quite as much as you seem to, I prefer flawed things, as they are more beautiful and interesting to me. Perfection? Sounds boring as hell. Sounds like a hive where there are no real individuals. No thanks, I will take my imperfect wife and child over any number of perfect ones you could possibly throw my way. I like my piece of crap car that I have to hold the hazard to make the blinker work, it has character, and no amount of perfection will ever make true personality or character.
"...and rule with Him in a perfect world with my Friend forever."
Really? You will rule the world? My, that doesn't sound megalomaniacal or egotistical at all....
(Yep, you guessed it, sarcasm)
"The old order of things will pass away..."
That happens all the time. Change is the only true inevitability in the universe.
"He will make all things new..."
Yes, yes, out of the old. That happens all the time too. Really, keep it up and I will think you like Buddhism more than Christianity.
"I wish you would be there too"
No thanks.
"because the price has already been paid for you to go"
If that were true, I wouldn't have to pay an entirely separate price to go. However, since I do have to "believe" it in order to go, that would be the price of going.
"and its not what you think, it will be beyond your imagination because look how cool nature is on this planet and we were created to rule."
Appeal to mystery again? "HEAVEN IS BEYOND YOUR PUNY IMAGINATION, AND YOU SHOULD WANT TO GO THERE! Even if you don't know what it is gonna be like, you should want to go, because....stuff and...things...and stuff....
Also, we rule the world? Isn't that a rather loaded notion. We don't rule this world anymore than a bird rules the sky.
"(I am praying for you--for no other reason but because I care) and God knows my heart."
Pray all you want, I don't mind, I haven't heard of it hurting someone. However, you better not be performing any blood sacrifices in my name, as I hate that stupid shit no matter who or what is doing it. Even if I knew your Jesus was sacrificed, I would be morally obligated to refuse it, as human sacrifice is a deplorable activity and no upright thinking person should support or promote it in any way or sense.
Ronda
So you are speaking for me now? I don't care if this is just that you mixed up me and Travis.
"The Pragmatic believes by faith in what others said". You clearly do not even begin to understand what you are talking about. You don't seem to understand the first thing about thinking critically.
Don't you EVER even pretend to speak FOR me.
I apologize that I got you mixed up with Travis, that wasn't intentional and I won't speak for you again...but you'll have to take that on faith. :)
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