No matter what the religious flavor, I’ve never met nor heard of any theist (in one that espouses eternal reward/punishment) that would say s/he will end up on the punishment end of the deal when they die. I’ve also heard them refer to their dead loved ones as “in a better place”, not in a worse one.
Have you?
It seems they consider themselves worthy despite many of them saying, “we are all sinners.”
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Every funeral I have ever attended I have heard multiple times, "He/she is in a better place." Even at my Mom's funeral about three years ago. My typical response at that time was basically, "Well, all I know for sure is that she is no longer suffering with the pain that has plagued her for the last several years." And that was before I finally completely broke away from my religious ties. Like you said, though, Cyber, I do not recall that I have ever heard anybody say, "Poor guy/gal. It's a shame they will be burning in hell for eternity." Funny that, huh?
The afterlife is a voyeuristic fantasyland where the dear departed look down upon us or watch damned souls being tormented forever in hell.
Most theists I've known are living proof of what Sartre said: "Hell is other people."
@CyberLN
" I’ve also heard them refer to their dead loved ones as “in a better place”, not in a worse one.
Have you?"
Nup.
I've noticed than when reading the death notice of a real prick I knew, I have never, ever read something like this;
"Fred Farrnackle finally died yesterday at age 57. He was an utter bastard to his six children and we're all glad he's dead"
According to death notices arseholes never die.
I've decided to change my name to ZXVYA. ZZZZXXXQ . This is because I noticed something rather peculiar about the death notices. Here in Aunty Adelaide , people die in alphabetical order. Really, I swear.
Addendum: Even curiouser when one realises that Christians invented the idea of an eternal hell, over centuries.
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My reference; Bishop (ret) John Shelby Spong. Link from Youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc
John Shelby "Jack" Spong (born June 16, 1931) is a retired bishop of the Episcopal Church. From 1979 to 2000, he was the Bishop of Newark, New Jersey. A liberal Christian theologian, religion commentator and author, he calls for a fundamental rethinking of Christian belief away from theism and traditional doctrines.[1]------
-------A prominent theme in Spong's writing is that the popular and literal interpretations of Christian scripture are not sustainable and do not speak honestly to the situation of modern Christian communities. He believes in a more nuanced approach to scripture, informed by scholarship and compassion, which can be consistent with both Christian tradition and contemporary understandings of the universe. He believes that theism has lost credibility as a valid conception of God's nature. He states that he is a Christian because he believes that Jesus Christ fully expressed the presence of a God of compassion and selfless love and that this is the meaning of the early Christian proclamation, "Jesus is Lord" (Spong, 1994 and Spong, 1991). Elaborating on this last idea he affirms that Jesus was adopted by God as his son (Born of a Woman 1992), and he says that this would be the way God was fully incarnated in Jesus Christ.[1] He rejects the historical truth claims of some Christian doctrines, such as the Virgin Birth (Spong, 1992) and the bodily resurrection of Jesus (Spong, 1994). In 2000, Spong was a critic of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith of the Roman Catholic Church's declaration Dominus Iesus, because it reaffirmed the Catholic doctrine that the Roman Catholic Church is the one true Church and that Jesus Christ is the one and only savior for humanity.[10]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Shelby_Spong
I'm not sure if the authors were theists, but a newspaper called the Irish Radical carried the following obituary for Hendrik Verwoerd, a former South African prime minister and architect of apartheid.
"He was a rotten bastard. Hell roast him."
Wherever Verwoerd is, this world is a better place now he's gone.
@Algebe
"Wherever Verwoerd is, this world is a better place now he's gone."
Have heard the name, and not positively, but very vague.
The wiki article in very interesting. I didn't know much of it at all.
There's an interesting movie about a white South African teen going to the US on exchange. He finds her host family is black.
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Hendrik Frensch Verwoerd ([fəˈvuːrt]; 8 September 1901 – 6 September 1966), also commonly referred to as Dr. Verwoerd, was a South African politician, Applied Psychology & Sociology scholar and journalist. Verwoerd played an instrumental role in the Social engineering[disambiguation needed] of apartheid, and putting its policies into practice during his tenure as "Minister of Native Affairs" (1950-1958) and then as prime minister of South Africa from 1958 to 1966. Furthermore, he played a vital role in helping the far-right National Party come to power in 1948, serving as their political strategist & their propagandist. As leader of South Africa's National Party, Verwoerd served as the last prime minister of the Union of South Africa from 1958 until 1961. In 1961 he proclaimed the founding of the Republic of South Africa, and continued as its prime minister until his assassination in 1966.
Verwoerd was an authoritarian, socially conservative leader and an Afrikaner nationalist. He was also a member of the Afrikaner Broederbond (Afrikaans: Brotherhood), which was a white and Afrikaner only secret Calvinistic organization dedicated to advance interests of the Afrikaner people. Many of the Broederbond members, including Verwoerd, verbally supported Germany during the Second World War and many of its members would eventually be appointed to high government positions once the National Party came to power in 1948. During apartheid Broederbond, members such as Verwoerd would have a profound influence on both public & civil society in South Africa as a whole. Verwoerd goal in founding the Republic of South Africa, thereby leaving the Commonwealth of Nations, was to preserve minority rule by white Afrikaners over the various non-white ethnic groups, including Bantu, Khoisan, Coloured and Indian people, who were the majority of South Africa's population. To that end, Verwoerd greatly expanded apartheid, the system of forced racial classification, segregation, mass removal & resettlement.[citation needed]----much more
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hendrik_Verwoerd
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The film: "The Color Of Friendship"
Sounds a bit cheesy and simplistic I know, but I enjoyed it.
"The Color of Friendship is a 2000 television film based on actual events about the friendship between two girls; Mahree & Piper, one from the United States and the other from apartheid South Africa, who learn about tolerance and friendship.[2] The film was directed by Kevin Hooks, based on a script by Paris Qualles, and stars Lindsey Haun and Shadia Simmons."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Color_of_Friendship
I have heard, in the workplace, a comment from a young, (and very pretty) woman that she knew her Uncle was burning in hell for his unbelief. She described to an enthralled eavesdropping tea room how her other Auntie had had "a message from the other side" telling them that said Uncle was condemned to the bad place. I gather he enjoyed a drink, played pool,played rugby on Sunday and drank after matches, had been divorced and never went to church. 'Sounds like a regular bloke'....most of us were thinking!
I have been, like most outspoken atheists been damned to, assured that my destination will be, some sort of fiery underworld. Meh, as long as they aint there it is all good I reckon.
@Old man shouts;
My aunt went to see this medium who managed to contact her dead hubby.
Aunt ; "Bert, is that you Bert?"
Bert "Yes dear"
Aunt. "Are you happy Bert?"
Bert "Yes dear"
Aunt': "Happier than you were with me?"
Bert :"Oh yes, much happier"
Aunt ;"Heaven must be a beautiful place"
Bert ; "I ain't in heaven"
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In recent years, I've become fond if American folk music. I found that most of my generation's music has become a bit boring after over 50 years. I was stunned to realise how badly most Beatle's music has dated. AND how little ABBA's has.
The link below is to a true traditionalist, Iris Dement. Note the instruments and the finely honed adenoidal quality of her voice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlaoR5m4L80
Plus, I've also become quite besotted with Linda Ronstadt, at her peak. Lately, I discovered her " Canciones di mi padre" (Ronda is half Mexican) What a set of pipes that girl had. (I say "had" because the poor girl has Parkinson's and can no longer sing)
Although full concerts are available free on Youtube, the clip linked below is only a bit over 3 minutes. Linda is featured going full mariachi, in costume and voice and I love it. ( I do not speak more than a few words of Spanish )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3uDUIuXd1FE
@Cranky47 I've also become quite besotted with Linda Ronstadt
Oh you're no good!
@Algebe
'Oh you're no good!"
I think that might have been considered witty in about 1976 .
Yep, I hear that folks who have no gods are surely damned but nary a theist seems to be.
@CyberLN
A very good point, they often use Pascal's wager, as if picking one version of one deity narrows the odds significantly, when it does no such thing, so they are as likely to end up in hell as an atheist. As an atheist I don't believe in hell of course, and they do, yet they insist I am the one who should be worried, which is bizarre, they are the ones who should be scared.
Also how often have we seen theists on here who worship totally different deities from different religions, engage in the same arguments against atheists, but never address the fact they totally disagree with each other?
If there's a Hell, like what is described as a firy pit of torture fixed up for those who sin and it was created by God as some eternal judgement that can only be avoided if one holds the right set of beliefs...
Then I'm probably going there, because what I believe in wouldn't do that. My heresy of not believing in a God who would do that would also condemn me, and the reality of the universe is it was created to be eternally cruel to those who do not believe the right way and eternally generous to those who did.
I can't ponder why a universe would be created for that purpose, so if it somehow was, I'm going straight there.
@ Homer
The fruit of the cherry tree is worth picking, no?
I guess the only penalty is going to hell if it exists as described.
So why not?
@Homer
https://www.crossway.org/articles/what-did-jesus-teach-about-hell/
I know right!?
I wish I could ask some questions of him there! I've got some moral issues with that whole concept, and those issues may indeed doom me there!
Somebody was looking for a theist who thinks he's going to hell, and I'm raising my hand high on that one it it's indeed what happens.
Probably a special hell for cherry pickers!!
@Homer
It has often been pointed out by various posters on this forum that men create deities in their own image, not the other way around.
That could indeed be the case! Or it could be that we were created in the image of God including the BS detectors for things that just don't make sense that we are told.
That seems very implausible, given that the extremely varied deities and religions created, always reflect so accurately the cultures, morals, and ignorance of the epochs from which they are derived. A far more plausible explanation is that all religions and deities are entirely man made.
A lottery of faith based chance where hell or damnation is the more likely outcome seems bizarre enough, but when you add the lottery of mere geography being a primary decider, it all unravels pretty quickly for me. This doesn't stop the delusion cheering up a lot of people of course, but sadly religion is not a harmless delusion, even today when many countries have neutered its powers.I think The late author and polemicist Christopher Hitchens summed this up quite eloquently and accurately.
“Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse.”
Or maybe they are all seeking the same thing?
I offer the same George Lucas quote:
"Well, I think there is a God. No question. What that God is, or what we know about that God I’m not sure. The one thing I know about life and about the — the nature of the human race is that it — the human race has always believed it’s known everything. Even the cavemen thought they had it all figured out and they knew everything there was to know about everything. Because that’s what — that’s where mythology came from. You know, it’s constructing some kind of — of — of context for the unknown. So we figured it all out and it was fine. I would say that, you know, cavemen had, you know, on a scale — and understood about one, you know? Now we’ve made it up to about five. The only thing that most people don’t realize is the scale goes to a million."
But we digress, the question was, "Anyone know a theist who thinks they are going to hell?"
And if it does exist as described, I'm saying I'm going there for my sin of believing it would be immoral for it to exist.
Again:
That seems very implausible, given that the extremely varied deities and religions created, always reflect so accurately the cultures, morals, and ignorance of the epochs from which they are derived. A far more plausible explanation is that all religions and deities are entirely man made.
A lottery of faith based chance where hell or damnation is the more likely outcome seems bizarre enough, but when you add the lottery of mere geography being a primary decider, it all unravels pretty quickly for me. This doesn't stop the delusion cheering up a lot of people of course, but sadly religion is not a harmless delusion, even today when many countries have neutered its powers.I think The late author and polemicist Christopher Hitchens summed this up quite eloquently and accurately.
The unevidenced assertions of a science fiction writer are still irrelevant, whereas the Hitchens's quote was relating a fact about how religions have always behaved when they held power, which compares starkly with the wishy washy tambourine banging you are trying to sell.
Just another unevidenced assertion, only this time you are ignoring the tenets and doctrinal teachings of the religion you claim to adhere to, and biblical texts assigned to Jesus, whose teachings you claim to follow and respect as moral?
So:
1. A belief you can't evidence.
2. A belief you can't rationalise.
3. A belief that defies the biblical teachings of Jesus.
4. A belief that is at odds with the doctrine of the religion you claim to belong to.
...and in it's place you think an evidenced assertion from a science fiction writer is somehow apropos?
I'm finding it harder and harder to take your posts seriously sorry. Also your position doesn't change the fact it is an almost unique claim among theists on here.
Lol, "fact it is an almost unique claim among theists here" .... Argumentum ad Populum and there's no real Populum here!
It's not a bare appeal to numbers. Nice evasion though, you do have plenty of form for that when your rhetoric runs out. try again...
The unevidenced assertions of a science fiction writer are still irrelevant, whereas the Hitchens's quote was relating a fact about how religions have always behaved when they held power, which compares starkly with the wishy washy tambourine banging you are trying to sell.
Just another unevidenced assertion, only this time you are ignoring the tenets and doctrinal teachings of the religion you claim to adhere to, and biblical texts assigned to Jesus, whose teachings you claim to follow and respect as moral?
1. A belief you can't evidence.
2. A belief you can't rationalise.
3. A belief that defies the biblical teachings of Jesus.
4. A belief that is at odds with the doctrine of the religion you claim to belong to.
...and in it's place you think an evidenced assertion from a science fiction writer is somehow apropos?
See if you can muster something approaching honest debate, instead of evasive cliche.
I guess I'm a poor example of a Christian and I pick bad George Lucas quotes then.
@Homer
How does that response address the post again? Look at what was said:
1. A belief you can't evidence.
2. A belief you can't rationalise.
3. A belief that defies the biblical teachings of Jesus.
4. A belief that is at odds with the doctrine of the religion you claim to belong to.
Your quote was Lucas's unevidenced assertion a deity exists, and so it was irrelevant both times you used it, and it seemed like it was a red herring to avoid addressing the other quotes, both times. I don't think given the context, being a poor christian is anything to be ashamed of, however the fact remains, men create deities in their own image, not the other way around. If all believers created liberal and just deities, the delusion would be a lot less objectionable, again see and address honestly the Hitchens's quote you have now failed to address twice.
“Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse.”
Christopher Hitchens
And the preceding point, for context:
A lottery of faith based chance where hell or damnation is the more likely outcome seems bizarre enough, but when you add the lottery of mere geography being a primary decider, it all unravels pretty quickly for me. This doesn't stop the delusion cheering up a lot of people of course, but sadly religion is not a harmless delusion, even today when many countries have neutered its powers.
Ok,
1.A belief I can't evidence. - My " evidence" suffices my belief for me. This is a dead horse. If you want to say the basis of my belief is fallacy, then go for it. The fact is I still believe and don't expect anyone else to do so.
2. A belief you can't rationalize. - I surely can't to your satisfaction, so? Yet I believe.
3. A belief that defies the Biblical teachings of Jesus. - I'm sorry if I don't align with all the Biblical teachings of Jesus when it comes to what I read in the Bible. If I had the chance I would ask and if he reinforced the it, I would disagree with him even at the risk of being cast to hell. Sue me. If I'm doing believing in God wrong then so be it.
4. A belief at odds with the doctrine of Christianity. I guess I don't conform to doctrines that have been instilled over 2000 years, with editing and picking and choosing what those men wanted to. I'll take that risk and believe how I believe.
I like my Lucas quote, sue me. It speaks of us thinking we always think we have things figured out when we've only just begun. Is see it describing man's search for that something, whatever culture wanted to call their deities. Not that the deities were man made as much as man searches for his creator and creates his own description from his background. It doesn't mean a creator doesn't exist, it does give many thoughts of what that creator might be. (Even without a shred of evidence beyond something like "fruit")
But that's what I see his quote talking about. You spoke of various deities and they all can't be right, and I'm saying they are man's differing conceptions of what the creator is.
As as for Hitchens, I agree that man has taken the power of religion and done evil things. Not sure what I can do about that. I promise you my believing in a creator God and following teachings of Jesus to access that creator, even if I don't believe every teaching attributed to Jesus, especially about a punishment hell, I won't use my faith to harm a fly.
All this because I said I was probably going to hell if he'll exists. I wonder what would have happened if I said I was going to heaven even if he'll exists!
Homer, after reading just your #1, I can’t help but wonder why, then, you are here, at AR, in a debate forum.
When I see so many fundamentalists speaking so much on forums like this, standing on street corners, etc, pushing a view of what faith in God entails that I just don't agree with, I can't help but want to share my view, no matter how much I really realize I'm going to get, well, what I get.
The whole "of all the theists here, your view is unique" comment only reinforces why I do it. Lol, it's absolutely not a goal of winning an argument, now that would be a delusion even to me! There are many people who believe in God who don't believe the Bible is in any way some infallible book, nor to they view people who express disbelief in God as anything but people who feel differently and quite capable of being completely moral people without a God.
@ Homer
There are as many who don't believe in a god at all, or believe in a different one or a multitude of them. So what the hell is your point?
I have come to the conclusion, Homer, that you are indeed "special".
I think if you didn't chop off the last of my post to just reply to, my point was pretty clear.
I'm looking at a thread of people pondering why theists never think they are the ones going to hell... I think wow, I guess if hell does exist, I guess I'm going there! I indeed would be one going because, as do many like me who aren't preaching in people's faces about having some monopoly on righteousness, we find the concept of hell as often presented as morally wrong and wrestle with the issue in our faith. Many Christians reject the concept of a tormenting hell even though it is in the Bible.
So I spoke up...
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