Every January 9, the Traslación of the Black Nazarene (commemorating the "solemn transfer" of the image's copy from San Nicolás de Tolentino in Intramuros to Quiapo) makes its way along the streets of Quiapo, with attendees reaching up to 12 million and counting
every year.
The Black Nazarene is a life-sized image of a dark-skinned, kneeling Jesus Christ carrying the Cross enshrined in the Minor Basilica of the Black Nazarene in the Quiapo district of the City of Manila, Philippines.
share your notion about this feast that is now taking place here in our country,the procession last for 20-22 hours and even longer, and devotees walk barefooted. amazing how colossal faith filipino's has right?
https://www.rappler.com/nation/193185-live-2018-feast-black-nazarene-quiapo
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The Filipino people have been a conquered people for centuries. The Dutch, the Spanish, the Chinese, The Americans, and the Japanese, have all held an imperialist hand over them. Their culture has been destroyed. Now they struggle with a national identity crisis that has been in the making from the time of Magellan. As a nation, they have become a devout catholic nation, not unlike Mexico. Their variation of catholicism is a perversion just like most forms that incorporated native myths along with the christian myth foisted upon them. For example, in Peru, there is a march of saints that is a merge of catholicism and Inca myths. The events in the Philipines is much the same. It is totally insane to be sure, but that is where it stems from.
they believe that if they'll attend the procession with barefooted and holding on to the rope will grant them their wish.the sacrifice the perseverance and all that.and what is interesting here is most of the individuals that joins the procession are men.
some say it gives them good fortune, better health etc. the whole year long if they'll walk with it, and held on to its huge lasso.
i say it's totally BULLSHIT to waste my precious time on it. I'm a filipino but "NO THANKS"
I actually don’t like how the feast of the black Nazarene is celebrated. To me, it borders on idolatry though I don’t doubt that there are people who have genuine devotion to the black Nazarene.
I prefer the feast of the Sto. Niño (Sinulog) in Cebu is celebrated.
Did you really say idolatry JoC? A catholic? Where every church is given over to "graven imgages" the cults of Mary and the saints are paraded on a daily basis? ? And remember the Black Nazarene has the blessing of your supreme arbiters of the faith. Be careful JoC you will be in front of a tribunal lickety split if you continue in your ways.
Yes. I said idolatry. I’ve yet to meet a fellow Catholic who worships the images in the churches. We worship God who is represented by the images. Kinda like how you’d keep a picture of your loved ones at home when you can’t see them.
No sane person would ever think you love the picture itself. You actually love the person the picture represents. That is the Catholic understanding of this issue
@JoC: To me, it borders on idolatry
LOL. I went to several concerts in Catholic churches and cathedrals during a trip to Vienna last year Every inch of walls and ceilings was covered with ugly statues and images of Jesus getting born, Jesus dying, Mary , shepherds, lambs, angels, and nasty little naked babies with wings. Some of the Jesus figurines had red shiny hearts with sunbeams shooting out of them.
I think the orchestras chose the churches because all the crap on the walls prevents echoes. But it was like listening to Mozart in the Chamber of Horrors at Madame Tussauds in London.
When you're not worshiping images, you're praying to little bits of bone and dried blood. If you take away the idolatry from Catholicism, what's left?
Read my comment above.
@JoC
We've seen it: praying to statues, having supernatural rituals performed on the statues by the clergy, and the belief the statues have/grant supernatural powers. Of course you don't think it is idolatry, you're Catholic!
You know what else is funny, you're from the Philippines, but claim you've never seen it! The most intense form of idolatry I've ever seen was in the Filipino Catholic community.
Well, I don’t know what to say to you, Nyar. Oh about why I’ve never attended the feast of the Black Nazarene, that’s coz this happens in one part of the country. I’m from another part. Simple. Good day to you.
@JoC: Read my comment above.
So all the people who go on pilgrimages to see weeping statues of Mary or saints' relics aren't true Catholics? What's the significance of kissing the Ring of the Fisherman? Would any old ring do or is there something unique about that one?
Aren't the bread and wine used in communion a form of idolatry? They aren't symbols. You actually believe you're eating flesh and drinking blood, don't you?
You miss my point completely, algebe. Catholics go to shrines, look at statues and all. I do these as well. But we don't worship the statues at all. They're aids in our prayer life. If we see a statue of the Mary, we're able to think about her when we pray. When we see an image of Jesus on the cross, it helps us put a face to the God we worship. We, in no way, worship the actual statue.
My analogy is like this. I have a picture of my girlfriend on my desk at home. When I get stressed working late at night (working from home), I sometimes look at her picture and maybe even sometimes give it a kiss. No sane person who would walk up and see me do this thing would conclude that I'm in love with paper with some ink on it. That love is directed towards the person who isn't physically there.
"Aren't the bread and wine used in communion a form of idolatry? They aren't symbols. You actually believe you're eating flesh and drinking blood, don't you?"
- This is going into some things that might be hard for people to understand. I personally need reminding of it from time to time. There's a concept called transubstantiation meaning the bread and wine cease to be bread and wine and become Jesus' body, blood, soul and divinity. So worshiping that wouldn't be idolatry as it's not bread or wine, it's Jesus. And yes, I believe that I'm taking in the body and blood of Christ (I'm careful to phrase it this way).
This is actually where the difference between body and soul would help. But I assume that as an atheist, you don't believe there's a soul so it might be futile for me to try and explain that. Hope this helps though.
Right; but to make your analogy complete, you would need to perform supernatural rites on the photo (something Catholics do with statues), pray to it (something Catholics do), and attribute supernatural effects in your home to the photo (something Catholics do). That is obvious idolatry according to your mythology; but your membership in the cult prevents you from seeing it as such.
Attribute supernatural effects to it? This is actually the exact thing why I don’t like the feast of Black Nazarene. Some Catholics do indeed think this. And in Catholic schools, we are warned against doing such a thing.
Perform supernatural rites? Like what? Praying to statues? Provided that Catholics worship God, and I love my girlfriend, then I say the analogy holds. If I worshiped my girlfriend, you’d see me showing even more reverence to her picture.
Lighting candles to a saint? Praying the rosary for intercessions? Saying 500 Hail Marys at the altar at Lourdes? That's a "magic ritual" no? Come on JoC wheres is the line between worshipping statues (graven images), false gods (Saints) (Arent we only meant to pray to Yahweh and intercession for Jesus/Yahweh) and the essence behind them?
I can see you tying yourself in knots over this just like my best friend for years...a jesuit trained priest. He had much the same trouble explaining the church contradictions to himself much less convincing me!
So when you have a "crying Jesus", "Bleeding Saint" or "Tearful Mary" statue catholics are only using that as an intercession mechanism?
Explain please then why that particular statue should have any more effect that any old 5c statue of a market stall?
It seems the veneration of the object is greater than the intercession abilities of the same non crying idol.
I’ll be using my “picture of my girlfriend analogy again”. Which item would I treat with more reverence? A picture of my girlfriend? Or a rock, the she probably touched once? Both will probably remind me of her but I’ll think twice about throwing out the picture than the rock.
JoC,
The point is that according to the biblical fairy tale it's sinful to have any depictions of anything. Only abstract art is allowed.
Exodus 20:4 (CJB) = "4 You are not to make for yourselves a carved image or any kind of representation of anything in heaven above, on the earth beneath or in the water below the shoreline."
And yet just 5 chapters later, God makes this command.
Exodus 25:18
“Make two cherubim* of beaten gold for the two ends of the cover”
Cherubim are angels.
The point of the passage you quoted is that the ancient Israelites were very prone to worshipping statues. Not God. The actual statues. So God prohibited them from making statues as they might fall into the sin of idolatry.
JoC,
Yahweh was a great kidder. He was always telling the dummies not to do something and then a second later tell them to do it to see how stupid they really were.
As it says in Ezekiel 20:25-26(CEV)= "25 I gave them laws that bring punishment instead of life, 26 and I let them offer me unacceptable sacrifices, including their first-born sons. I did this to horrify them and to let them know that I, the Lord, was punishing them."
The dummies were supposed to have been smart enough to have told Yahweh to go screw himself. You don't follow a bad law.
It says, "I let them..."
God has allowed evil to happen. But only to bring about a greater good. What good could that be? I can speculate but I could answer free will. If these people never wanted to be with God, He won't force them on him.
Re: Free will
Really? Again with the "free will"?
"Okay, listen up, ladies and gentlemen! Today we begin working on the project I told you about earlier this week. Now, since I sent you all the goals for the project, everybody should be on the same page concerning what we want to accomplish. With that in mind, I want everybody to know they are free to use whatever ideas and tools they want to accomplish the task. It should be a lot of fun, and I am looking forward to seeing some creative work out there. Before we get started, however, please take one of the folders that are being passed around. In the folder you will find a detailed description of the exact way I want the project to be completed. Okay, I know some of the instructions may be a little unclear, but I have confidence that you can interpret them correctly. But, again, please feel free to use whatever personal ideas you may have to complete the task. Just know, however, those who do not use the plans I just gave you will be fired. Now, get out there and have fun, folks!"
Yeah... "Free will."
To be fair, I still have the choice to leave said employer to look for another job. The picture you painted however, isn't what religion tells us to do with our free will.
Christianity for example, doesn't tell us that we should all be doctors or that we should all be lawyers. Or that noone should be artists.
"wriggle, wriggle" JoC.
Your God can't have it both ways in relationship to humans.
BTW when are you going to start answering our questions?
JoC: "it's not bread or wine, it's Jesus."
No it's not. I've watched communion. It's round wafers and cheap wine from start to finish. Pretending that inanimate objects are the body of a god sounds pretty idolatrous to me. I'll bet if you saw Hindus or Shintoists doing something similar you'd call them idolators.
Nope. I don't believe in souls. I believe in minds existing in brains supported by bodies. All consciousness, thought, emotion, awareness are right there in the brain. Talk to people with Alzheimer's or brain damage and you'll see they have deficits in areas that you'd probably think of as the soul.
You'd be wrong actually. If I did see Hindus or Shintoists doing something of the sort, I'd say they're practicing their religion. I wouldn't call it idolatrous simply because I lack the understanding of their teachings.
"I've watched communion. It's round wafers and cheap wine from start to finish."
-Sure. I see where you're coming from. But that's not how I see it. If you wanna know more about this, look up transubstantiation. It basically says that the substance changes while the accidents of bread and wine remain.
@JoC: "I'd say they're practicing their religion."
Hindus worship statues of the Shiva Lingam, the phallus of the god Shiva. Shintoists worship "Yama no Kami" (mountain gods) in the form of giant phalluses. Do they deserve the same respect as the Catholic communion? I find it all mildly amusing, but really it's just superstitious nonsense.
"substance changes while the accidents of bread and wine remain."
Are you suggesting that this change occurs anywhere other than in the minds of the worshippers?
I must admit for my very good friend (A priest as it happens) birthday I bought a bottle of Gevry Chambertin 72 and got the bishop to bless it, then, at mass we had primed the congregation to only have two or three come forward at communion. Of course at the end of the mass the priest has to drain the cup..it was a large bugger but I will always remember the beatific look on his face as he at first tasted then started to drink ( the verger hadn't watered it either)..His words on finishing the Mass was " Thank-you you fekkin lot of funny bastards"
He was a great guy and we had many late nigh discussions on the nuts and bolts of catholicism.
JoC, The whole transubstantiation crock is the long con isn't it? The wafer nor the wine turn into the blood and flesh of the christ. If it did would you be any better than the aztecs having a chew on their gods (human) flesh at festivals? Do you explain to 8 year olds , "oh, by the way, innocents, you will be drinking blood and eating human at your first communion?
Blech. What a ritual.
@JoC: Read my comment above.
So all the people who go on pilgrimages to see weeping statues of Mary or saints' relics aren't true Catholics? What's the significance of kissing the Ring of the Fisherman? Would any old ring do or is there something unique about that one?
Aren't the bread and wine used in communion a form of idolatry? They aren't symbols. You actually believe you're eating flesh and drinking blood, don't you?
Some people really need a hobby.
;)
I could give a shit about the Nazarene but I am in favor of feasts!
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