Explaining the Many Who Have Had Clear Experiences

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Sky Pilot's picture
Christian_Engineer,

Christian_Engineer,

"St Augstine in the 4th century I believe pointed out how thankful he was to learn that wasn't the way scripture was to be interpretted since he could see flaws in that type of reading of scripture as well."

Why do you think that a guy who supposedly lived in 4th Century Algeria knows more about anything than an educated adult who lives in the 21st Century?

Do you believe that he was more intelligent than you just because he had the word "saint" before his name?

Christian_Engineer's picture
I think he was smarter than

I think he was smarter than me because I have read his books. He was sharp. I know more about scientific principles than he does, but I would place large sums of cash that his IQ was higher than mine. What I was trying to describe is that even before the 4th century people knew the proper way to interpret the bible was not literally in all areas. He references this in his book, "Confessions".

Sky Pilot's picture
Christian_Engineer,

Christian_Engineer,

"What I was trying to describe is that even before the 4th century people knew the proper way to interpret the bible was not literally in all areas. He references this in his book, "Confessions"."

That is amazing since the Bible didn't exist in the 4th Century.

THINK.

You have a guy who supposedly lived in 4th Century Algeria who wrote a book that exists today detailing his analysis of the Bible. Yet there is not one single copy of a 4th Century Bible in existence.

Christian_Engineer's picture
The Bible contains an Old and

The Bible contains an Old and New Testament. The church was already using both sets of scripture by the 4th century. The old testament had been compiled into "books" at this point and the New testament was being compiled. By "Bible" I was referring to scriptures.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ CE

@ CE

Just a heads up, Diotrephes is convinced the Bible was written in entirety by a committee of Englishmen in the 7th Century CE. He is convinced the Codex Sinaiticus and the Vaticanus are elaborate fakes.

Apart from that Augustine of Hippo helped formulate that disgusting doctrine of Original Sin. Horrible man.

Sky Pilot's picture
Christian_Engineer,

Christian_Engineer,

That is a misleading statement because there was never one single unified book of all of the current biblical books before the 680s-690s. Various people may have had a couple of assorted "books" (scrolls) but they didn't have all of them in one collection. That is why you can't produce a legitimate copy of the Bible written before then.

Mutorc S'yriah's picture
No doubt, people have

No doubt, people have experiences that they find to be crystal clear to them, and attribute them to some cause. The problem is that each person's experiences are private, and first-person. We know that in groups, people can be convinced that they have witnessed things, which we know to be false, take the case of illusionists who perform acts on stage, which are designed to deceive. In such cases, surely many audience members are looking for how the trick is done, but can't spot it. I would be looking out for it, but I'd be tricked, and not know HOW.

One aspect of such trickery is to set people up to expect certain things, and people who have a religious background are apt to interpret things in the light of what they think is possible, and to have such interpretations reinforced or accepted by other like minded people.

So while people have experiences, whether clear or vaguely "mystical", they may be interpreting the experience incorrectly. As a person who does not have such experiences, who is skeptical, (asks for good evidence), and so is cut off from the experience itself, what I will say is there has been an experience by another person, they have interpreted the experience a certain way, but they may be wrong about what the experience really was, or what its true explanation may be.

Of course I have experiences of my own, but as a sceptic, I will not jump to conclusions, and have never had reasons to believe that anything I've experienced lends credibility to belief in any gods, or in the supernatural. Could I be wrong? Well no, because all I'm saying is I'm not convinced, and that is true, (I'm not [yet] convinced). I am not saying that the supernatural or a god do not exist, simply that I have not had any good reason to think they do. If I get the good, convincing evidence I require, I might change my mind, but until then - NOT. As such, I am an atheist.

I'm not in a position to test another person, or peoples', private experience(s) in any way, and all I have is what I'm told by the person, or others who report what the person said they experienced, and what it meant to them. If the explanation expects me to accept something that I have no good reason to believe is possible, (like the so-called supernatural), then I'm not going to accept the explanation. If I could test the explanation, then I would, and might draw conclusions that agree with or don't agree with what the subject thought they experienced, and what its explanation was.

CyberLN's picture
As an engineer, how do you

As an engineer, how do you explain claims about anything supernatural that does not include any god or your version of god?

Christian_Engineer's picture
I believe there are aspects

I believe there are aspects of creation that we do not understand. I do believe God is capable of modifying anything including the laws of physics on his own whim.

I would assume that when a buddhist, for example, has a supernatural experience that it is the same God just not recognized as such by the individual.

LogicFTW's picture
@Christian_Engineer

@Christian_Engineer

Do you believe in Santa Claus? Tooth fairy? Vampires? Werewolves? Unicorns? Minotaurs? Zeus?

How about the prophet Muhammad?

Why or why not?

Does god exist in the universe?

And correct; every one of these is a trap question regardless if you answer yes or no.

Realize your inability to answer these questions simply without falling into major contradictions should be big red flags to the authenticity of your god/religion concepts.

 
 

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I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
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arakish's picture
Christian Engineer: "I

Christian Engineer: "I believe there are aspects of creation that we do not understand. I do believe God is capable of modifying anything including the laws of physics on his own whim."

Yet your deity follows the most immoral code I have ever seen for doing such.

rmfr

Sheldon's picture
Unless they can demonstrate

Unless they can demonstrate objective evidence for their claims then they are no different to any other anecdotal claims, and in the context of something that has never been objectively evidenced I don't believe the claim. There simply is no need to speculate on whether they are sincere or not, as this has no relevance to the validity of the claim, but it is demonstrably obvious that many theists have and do lie and exaggerate such experiences.

I am reading a book about societies without religion, and the author an American is relating interviews with people in Norway, and one of the women interviewed claimed such religious experiences and she believes in Thor. She is perfectly sincere, so do you believe Thor is real? Myself I am as dubious about Thor as I am about Jesus, Allah and all the other deities humans have created, and insists they have a real relationship with.

Christian_Engineer's picture
I don't believe in Thor, I

I don't believe in Thor, I don't know if there are 1,000's or more people with similar appearances of Thor. If I saw her interview and thought it was sincere, I would believe it to be a delusion or likely a misinterpretation on her part.

David Killens's picture
Why don't you believe in Thor

Why don't you believe in Thor? It just takes a little faith.

Faith notwithstanding, what is the difference between Thor and your god?

Sky Pilot's picture
David Killens,

David Killens,

"what is the difference between Thor and your god?"

Do you really want to go there?

His god is a Jewish creation, Thor isn't. Even muslims love Jewish fairy tales.

David Killens's picture
Yea, but Thor rides a chariot

Yea, but Thor rides a chariot pulled by goats. Those must be kick-ass goats, war goats.

Sky Pilot's picture
David Killens,

David Killens,

"Yea, but Thor rides a chariot pulled by goats. Those must be kick-ass goats, war goats."

If Thor has iron chariots then Jealous can't defeat him. Jealous is powerless against iron chariots.

gupsphoo's picture
If Thor threatens people with

If Thor threatens people with hell, he may have a lot more believers.

algebe's picture
@David Killens: what is the

@David Killens: what is the difference between Thor and your god?

Jesus was never a cross-dresser. Thor dressed up as a bride and married a giant, who never saw through the disguise even when Thor ate a whole ox during the reception.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Erymskvi%C3%B0a

That beats turning water into wine.

arakish's picture
Christian Engineer: "I would

Christian Engineer: "I would believe it to be a delusion or likely a misinterpretation on her part."

And I say the same thing about all religion.

rmfr

jay-h's picture
Many people who are not

Many people who are not Christians also experience 'supernatural events' . Do we assume their religion is proven by those events?

I've experienced a few intriguing things over the years, but the truth is they are almost certainly a product of my mind, not some other entity. And, indeed, if there are entities we cannot see they are much more likely an exotic life form rather than someone who runs the whole universe, but is intensely interested in who we mate with.

[I have a cousin who started out as an engineer but became an evangelical preacher. I started in a rather fundamentalist family, but gave up on that decades ago.

algebe's picture
@Christian_Engineer: how do

@Christian_Engineer: how do most atheist explain super natural events that people report.

Error, hallucinations, drugs, alcohol, peer pressure, the desire for money and fame, religious hysteria, mass hysteria, mental illness, ergot poisoning, malaria, swamp gas....

Did you notice that in the 20th century people stopped seeing angels and demons and started seeing flying saucers and aliens? There seems to be cultural factors involved.

When you design buildings, bridges, etc., do you make allowances for supernatural factors, such as gremlins, or are you calculations based solely on forces, strengths, dimensions, etc.?

jay-h's picture
That's what bugged me about

That's what bugged me about the Star Trek stuff. So many of the stories were really just magic stories, with mysterious technical devices in place of the magic icons.

algebe's picture
@NeverHappened: That's what

@NeverHappened: That's what bugged me about the Star Trek stuff.

I was always annoyed by the religion and mysticism in Star Wars. "May the force be with you" and all that. I think Gene Roddenberry had a vision for a secular humanist future where people got along without religion, but as you say there was a lot of "deus ex machina" in it. As a translator, I believe that the most improbable plot device of all was the universal translator.

LogicFTW's picture
That is hollywood for ya.

That is hollywood for ya.

They know no one wants to watch episode after episode of aliens speaking alien languages, so they invented the universal translator. Where as logically there is no way a first contact scenario could any kind of super computer be able to instantly translate what is being said without delay or any reference.

I do not have experience as a translator, but I do know lots about coding, and slowly learning about machine learning and "AI" (such a misunderstood and abused term!) So I know just enough that no computer code or machine learning and/or AI could translate a language on the fly with zero previous data to pull or "learn" from.

Of course we all also know that not practically every planet that a starship could travel to that has intelligent life would mean an upright, 2 legs two arms creature with vocal cords eithir.

Put another way, a universal translator is roughly akin to trying to ask google translate to translate a language it has never encountered before. It cannot be done. And we all know google translate as good as it is these days, has a long way to go before it could truly rival an expert translator that spent their lives studying both languages and cultures of the two different nations.

 
 

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I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
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arakish's picture
NeverHappened: "That's what

NeverHappened: "That's what bugged me about the Star Trek stuff. So many of the stories were really just magic stories, with mysterious technical devices in place of the magic icons."

And that is so true. However, as one of the Clarke's Laws states (paraphrased): “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

rmfr

David Killens's picture
The original Star Trek were

The original Star Trek were just repurposed westerns. The hero (usually in white) rides into town, meets the hot chick, has a showdown with the evil villain (usually in black), vanquishes him and gets the gal.

algebe's picture
@David Killens: gets the gal

@David Killens: gets the gal

William Shatner called that the "Big Bang Theory".

dogalmighty's picture
If the events do not

If the events do not contravign the natural laws of our universe, they are possible. Don't forget reason though...which the religious, always do.

SeniorCitizen007's picture
What natural laws govern the

What natural laws govern the experiences identical twins have? My father was an identical twin ...so were his sisters ... two pairs of identical twins in the same family.

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