This post is for the purpose of addressing some the questions raised regarding evidence of God's existence.
The Bible is a very good place to provide a good answer. In fact, one Bible verse covers it very well. In 21st century English, the passage reads...
"...what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them. For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship,..." (Romans 1:19, 20).
Thus perception plays a very important part in trying to offer an explanation concerning the Creator.
Many, perhaps most, atheists would accept as proof of the existence of God only evidence they can see, feel, touch and take apart and reassemble in a laboratory setting. And, of course, that lab would have to be only where they would have unfettered access.
So, let us reason a bit.
How would I liken the Creator? Perhaps by looking at the problem in reverse. Let's look at the problem from God's point of view.
In Isaiah is a fitting description of the problem and with an element of reason comes understanding.
"There is One who dwells above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers...." Isaiah 40:22
Could you rightly expect a grasshopper to fully explain a human or human accomplishments like the Hubble space telescope? Or would you be humble enough to learn grasshopper speech and befriend them? Sounds foolish, correct? That is the dilemma.
Further on this line of thought is the difference between humans and chimpanzees is about one percent of DNA. On that scale what would a creature be like who was one percent greater than humans in their DNA? If their intellect would follow the same scale, could we ever hope to understand them? Much less be on par with them? And yet God is orders of magnitude greater than chimpanzees or grasshopper-like humans.
And here is one item we all see without any understanding. Something so basic it has no record anywhere in the Bible as having been created. And that even though many think it is listed among the creations attributed to God. And what is that? LIFE.
The Bible tells us this at Psalm 36:9 simply that the 'source of life is God'. Much has been hypothesized about life. Some have speculated about life having a chemical nature. Some have claimed that by assembling certain molecules together they have created life. But when pressed, they admit they can not and did not create life. It cannot be disassembled and reassembled. Some have speculated that life is a form of energy as yet not understood.
And there is God. If we go back to Romans 1:20 we see it speaks about the creation as giving us insight into God. So look at the creation. Focus on Isaiah 40:25, 26. "To whom can you liken me to make me his equal?” says the Holy One.
26 “Lift up your eyes to heaven and see. Who has created these things?
It is the One who brings out their army by number; He calls them all by name.
Because of his vast dynamic energy and his awe-inspiring power, Not one of them is missing."
Science today admit every star fulfills a purpose. Did you know we ourselves are star stuff? And even the super heavy elements seem to come from the collision of neutron stars. So not even a single star is missing.
Science also tells us eventually the universe itself will run down. Over 3000 years ago the Psalmist spoke of an immense maintenance project needed to fix the universe itself. Read for yourself Psalm 102:25-27. Makes for very interesting reading.
Oh. And DNA; Look at Psalm 139:16. "Your eyes even saw me as an embryo; All its parts were written in your book Regarding the days when they were formed, Before any of them existed.' Written more than 3,000 years before we had amassed enough knowledge on our own to understand, how would you explain that passage?
So, for a lowly human to define in human terms a being vastly more complex with knowledge and the ability to make and use forces beyond our comprehension, is at best an exercise in futility.
But a few things I do know. The Bible provides compelling evidence that God exists. It encourages us to build faith in God, not by blindly believing religious assertions, but by using our “power of reason” and “mental perception.”
The existence of an orderly universe containing life points to a Creator.
The Bible says: “Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God.” (Hebrews 3:4)
Although this logic is simple, many well-educated people find it to be powerful. For example, the late astronomer Allan Sandage once said regarding the universe: “I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery, but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing.”
Bible writers had scientific knowledge that was beyond the understanding of their contemporaries. For example, in ancient times many peoples believed that the earth was supported by an animal, such as an elephant, a boar, or an ox. In contrast, the Bible says that God is “suspending the earth upon nothing.” (Job 26:7) Similarly, the Bible correctly describes the shape of the earth as a “sphere,” or “globe. or circle (Isaiah 40:22) Many people feel that the most reasonable explanation for such advanced understanding is that Bible writers received their information from God.
The Bible answers many difficult questions, the type of questions that when not satisfactorily answered can lead a person to atheism. For example: If God is loving and all-powerful, why is there suffering and evil in the world? Why is Religion so often an influence for bad rather than for good? See Titus 1:6 Could it be the unsatisfactory answers to questions has caused you to be where you are?
So have I completely answered the questions posed? Probably not. However, at the same time, I hope I have raised questions that honest, open-minded individuals will seek answers to.
You can ask me and I promise to try and answer your questions using reason, logic and the Bible. I like a good challenge.
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I consider this reasoning anthropomorphic. Humans are so full of themselves that they project human attributes such as the ability to make tools, creative thinking, home building, etc.. on to the universe itself.
There is no good reason to believe that anything in the universe requires supernatural intervention. Nature has produced grasshoppers and chimps. Nature will continue without gods.
"Similarly, the Bible correctly describes the shape of the earth as a “sphere,” or “globe. or circle (Isaiah 40:22)"
A circle isn't the same as a globe. Nor is the sky a canopy. That just what it looks like from the surface of the Earth. If you're god floating above the Earth, you'd see the sky is a black expanse of space sparsely populated by galaxies.
"So not even a single star is missing."
Apart from the ones destroyed by supernovae, swallowed by black holes, or absorbed by more massive binary partners
Algebe:
Actually, relative to their extensions, galaxies (unlike stars) are fairly close to each other. That's why they are always colliding. Oops! There goes the biblical idea of a 6000 year-old earth! A decent collision between galaxies takes around 200 million years if not more. That's one pass. They circle about and collide a number of times before merging into a larger galaxy.
As for a spherical earth, Isaiah 40:22 doesn't use the Hebrew word for "ball." The word is "circle." Anyone living in Kansas can look out at the horizon and "see" the great circle of the earth! The earth, seen as a pancake in ancient eyes, would be inscribed within this great circle which may have took in sea as well as land. God, living just above the sky dome, a very solid sky dome!, would see the circle of the earth as a clear circle. It's a flat-earth view and entirely consistent with the rest of Isaiah's comments touching on the shape of earth.
Thanks Greensnake.
I also read somewhere that even when Galaxies collide, the distances between stars are so vast that there are few collisions inside the galaxies.
I haven't seen anything in the Bible that suggests a view of the cosmos other than what can be seen with the unaided eye from the surface of the earth. A flat circe with a dome over it sounds like Kansas (or an Australian desert if your head feels like it's on fire).
Bob: Why does the bible teach that the cure for leprosy is dipping a live bird in a slaughtered birds blood and sprinkling the blood over the growth and then setting the live bird free?
Bacteria do this every day.
New-age in Christian apologetics. Just when I thought I had seen it all!
Algebe already covered this but notice the language: "science admits".
I guess I didn't get that memo. Some hokey reference to the 2nd law?
As Algebe said: the bible says the Earth is a circle; it does not mention a sphere or globe; it also repeatedly says it has 4 corners.I'd just like to add that vague poetic references that modern people interpret in the framework of modern science is not going to convince us that the bible writers had "scientific knowledge that was beyond the understanding of their contemporaries". You have to do a hell of a lot better than that. Show me where the bible says f=ma and you'll get my attention.
In the first century the terraqueous globe was one model. A sphere of earth set inside a sphere of water. One land mass jutting out like a bobber in a pond. That is why we have both descriptions of a sphere and the four corners.
Nyarlathotep:
"it also repeatedly says it has 4 corners."
That reminds me of the cube-shaped Bizarro Planet from the Superman comics.
Algebe:
No doubt the Bible-believer will point out that we use such language today. But, where did that language come from? It's a carry-over from a time when it described a flat earth. The four corners (in some cases) might be describing the cardinal directions rather than literal corners, but that idea is just another flat-earth idea that becomes rather lame on a spherical earth. Unless one takes the absurd idea that the ancient authors were writing for a generation thousands of years in the future (but forgot about mentioning galaxies and other modern day knowledge) we may assume that the intended audience was contemporary. In that context "four corners" can only mean "flat earth."
Pure drivel... brought to us by Bob
@Bob
1) Prove there is a god, just don't provide a bunch of BULLSHIT from the bible. The bible isn't proof of anything other than the imagination of a few superstitious people.
2) You lack the understanding of what PROOF really is. You dismiss atheists as a bunch of people that are so simple minded as they only believe what they can personally experience by their personal senses. That is a false assumption.
You offered as proof "...what may be known about God is clearly evident among them, for God made it clear to them. For his invisible qualities are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship,..." (Romans 1:19, 20).
That is nothing more than a simplistic lie. It isn't proof at all. In essence, you are saying there IS a god because WE can't comprehend one. That is just stupid and illogical. If we can't comprehend a god, why assume that there is one?
You also misquoted Psalm 139:16. It never mentions embrio. It actually states "unformed body". Big difference. But anyway the bible is nothing more than stolen folklore, hearsay, and fables.
I am not surprised by yet another bible thumper quoting the bible as proof. Look Bob, the bible is uncorroborated, unsubstantiated, unreliable, hearsay, highly revised/altered and certainly NOT PROOF.
mykcob4:
"That is nothing more than a simplistic lie. It isn't proof at all. In essence, you are saying there IS a god because WE can't comprehend one. That is just stupid and illogical. If we can't comprehend a god, why assume that there is one?" - mykcob4
Nice point! Another way of looking at it is that the argument is a subtle example of begging the question. Bob reaches into his conclusion (that God exists and is way above us) to provide a reason for believing in God's existence despite lots of scientific problems. "Begging the Question" is one of the classic errors of reasoning! Correct reasoning would be to start with what we actually know (with reasonable certainty), the laws of nature, and arrive at this being of wondrous power! Unfortunately for believers, that approach gives us a powerful reason for rejecting the whole idea. (For those who haven't already done so, see my post: "Science Gives God the Bump!" (08/07/2016 18:47)).
"Oh. And DNA; Look at Psalm 139:16. "Your eyes even saw me as an embryo; All its parts were written in your book Regarding the days when they were formed, Before any of them existed.' Written more than 3,000 years before we had amassed enough knowledge on our own to understand, how would you explain that passage?"
Do you seriously need us to explain how this doesn't prove anything? David Koresh also found several passages in the bible crystallizing a message to his believers that were seemingly beyond reproach to them. That doesn't make them even remotely convincing to someone who hasn't lost the ability to ask OBVIOUS questions.
"You saw me as an embryo" in Psalms. LOL. As if the bronze age peasants that wrote the big book of multiple choice aka the holy babble knew anything about science in general and embryos in particular. Typically, this is translated as: "You saw me as an unformed substance." "Unformed substance"... hmmm, that sounds about right since it can be interpreted to mean anything that we know now or might learn about science in the future.
JB God's Country:
I suppose God's book might have left out an arm or a head! If not, then all the parts had to be there. That certainly doesn't prove anything about DNA. All the author is saying is that God had everything planned from day one, which doesn't prove diddly-squat! It's an ancient author fawning over his god's imagined power and foresight.
Obviously another theist drive by.
outside of the bible there is no way to know GOD, Or any other holy book.Just by looking at lifes fine qualities doesn`t get you to god, like I said often we just DON`T KNOW if there is a god.this argument back and forth has been going on for centuries on end.Theist have come up with all sought of arguments but none of them convince me.The big question is why does god hide himself, why is god so hard to find.THere was a study not so long ago that its final conclusions were that the act of praying was no more successful then the control group.Meaning that there was no advantage for the persons or persons that prayed to this so called God.Also you site nature well look at the discrepancies one finds with nature.look at tornadoes hurricanes earthquakes and the mere damage they do on property and human lives as well.Just because we don`t understand God being a higher power with a super dna doesn`t mean that there is that super anthropic human being.the only thing we have is our 5 senses and we use them pretty good.And by using those 5 senses humanity question still goes unanswered, we just don`t know that`s why I`m an agnostic.
@simply agnostic
PLEASE don't call yourself an agnostic, and PLEASE stop arguing FOR anything even close to atheism. You are really bad at it. Your statement "the only thing we have is our 5 senses and we use them pretty good."
This just shows how inept you are at both arguing (debating) and, your lack of command of the English language. Given the fact that human senses are considerably weaker than the senses of almost every other animal on earth. Also there are many animals that have MORE than 5 senses.
The one advantage humans have is abstract thought capability.
You are also wrong about the "outside the bible..." argument. When christianity was born there was no bible, yet people believed in the christian god.
What? You're an agnostic now. Make up your mind. On the last post I read from you, you were a christian
yes but even though animals have sharper senses they cant do what humanity can.the only way they believed without the bible was by mistaken oral argumentation.if you study Christianity only after pauls letters written in the 50`s ad, then later the first gospel of mark around 65to 70AD did the Christian following begin in numbers.
@simply agnostic
Does more than one person use your account? That might explain the constant name changing and flip flopping.
christianity only began in "numbers" only after Constantine converted and forced that conversion on his subjects between 306 t0 337 AD. Before that christianity was very small as a movement.
the reason why you or anyone else on this site may see confused is because when I joined the site I was a simple Christian, Or the other name I used was devout Christian, But since then I have changed over to a form of agnosticism. I`m very happy with this designation, some times I like to play the devils advocate on particular post addressing the subjects at hand.But you can rest assured being a committed agnostic.I`m sorry for any confusion or if you were perhaps offended I would appreciate everyones understanding in this matter.Thank you
@somply agnostic.
A likely excuse! You have nothing if not ambiguous since you have been here. Your post have advocated various beliefs to include the most evangelical inane form of christianity. At times, you have loosely said that you are agnostic but NEVER have ever acted nor posted anything to prove you actually ARE an agnostic.
Basically, you have been a fickled mess. None of your posts have had ANY proof or evidence, just bloody gibberish.
When you joined the group you were a christian. Did you join last week and change since your last posting?
Our first step in reasoning should be to recognize the use of the Bible as an example of begging the question, an error of reasoning. You are using a consequence of your conclusion (that God exists) to prove that God exists! Not good!
Bob:
You seem to be an honest, if naïve, newcomer to this forum, and you did say that you relish a challenge. Best of all, you can write! No incoherent babbling, running in half-baked circles, to decipher! So, I'll take the time to provide you with some serious challenges. Resist (if possible) the temptation of using easy, cheap rationalizations designed for the sole purpose of propping up a point at the expense of ignoring numerous facts. Give each challenge honest thought.
0) The main problem with all believers in holy books is that they read WAY more into their books than is actually there, and they IGNORE (rationalize/shrug off) anything that doesn't fit their point of view. That's why good people can be inspired by the Bible even as others commit monstrous crimes in its name. Decent believers focus on decent verses, perhaps even enhancing them, while downplaying or ignoring the rest. Depraved minds are molded by (and fixated on) depraved verses. The Bible and the Koran, probably any holy book, are more like a box of labeled chocolates. You get what you are looking for.
1) Using the "authority" of the Bible to support your conclusion that God exists begs the question. The Bible has no "authority" for you unless you assume that God wrote it. Therefore, you are borrowing from your conclusion (God exists) in order to establish biblical "authority" to prove that God exists! Begging the question is a very definite NO-NO if you are interested in sound reasoning.
2) [["God punishes them, because what can be known about God is plain to them, for God himself made it plain. Ever since God created the world, his invisible qualities, both his eternal power and his divine nature, have been clearly seen; they are perceived in the things that God has made. So those people have no excuse at all!" (Romans 1:19, 20). --Bob]]
Here I use the New English Bible to give the passage that Bob quoted.
Odd, don't you think, that the world's brightest minds (members of national academies of science, Nobel Prize winners) belong mostly to atheists! Maybe this "plain" evidence is not so plain after all. Maybe Paul was operating under an Iron Age delusion. Not to worry. The Bible has its own venom-filled reply. "…Instead their thoughts have become complete nonsense, and their empty minds are filled with darkness. They say they are wise, but they are fools…" (Romans 1:21-22).
Such is the stupid, hide-bound reply to intelligence. The modern version is to call learned professors "pointy-headed," over-educated, prisoners of ivory towers! Usually, they are also part of a giant conspiracy! Stupid minds don't wrestle with facts, be it the author of Romans or some guy shouting from an electronic pulpit. Baseless claims delivered with "authority" are their forte. Just don't look too closely at the evidence!
Ironic, how those "empty" minds filled with "darkness" and possessed by "fools" got us to the moon. Funny, that they provided the light to see into the depths of nature at levels the Bible can't even conceive of!
3) [[Much has been hypothesized about life. Some have speculated about life having a chemical nature. --Bob]]
That's the operational principle of all molecular biology today! We know a great deal about life today! For example, we know in considerable detail how the cells of microbes, plants, and animals generate their power. No non-chemical forces in sight!
[[Some have speculated that life is a form of energy as yet not understood. --Bob]]
You're thinking of 19th century vitalism which has been obsolete for some time.
[[And there is God. --Bob]]
Yes, the all-purpose explanation for everything not understood, from lightening, disease, and famine (in ancient times) to life itself today. Except, it is not really an explanation. It's a story. A story is not necessarily wrong, but it is not concerned with tight reasoning. It simply lays out a scenario and a plot, and you can take it or leave it.
4) [[Science today admit every star fulfills a purpose. Did you know we ourselves are star stuff? And even the super heavy elements seem to come from the collision of neutron stars. So not even a single star is missing. --Bob]]
Purpose? Science deals with functions, not purposes! Stars put out light and heat, they have magnetic fields, and they have gravitational fields. So what? Plants have evolved so that their leaves convert the energy of sunlight into chemical energy. So what? Novas and supernovas create and disseminate the essential elements for life. So what? Plants and animals in a jungle interact in marvelous, subtle ways that support the whole. So what? Those arrangements that work survive. Things get adjusted one way or another until a stable configuration is reached. Are you saying this was all planned? Do you have any evidence? "Purpose" is a word that normally implies a designer. Science knows of no "Great Designer."
How would anyone know if a single star is missing? The statement is plain silly as it stands.
5) [[Science also tells us eventually the universe itself will run down. Over 3000 years ago the Psalmist spoke of an immense maintenance project needed to fix the universe itself. Read for yourself Psalm 102:25-27. Makes for very interesting reading. --Bob]]
I don't see any reference to a maintenance project. When the Bible speaks of "heavens" it is not talking about endless space filled with far-flung galaxies that define the modern universe. Rather, it is talking about a dome (with stars attached, under which the sun passes in its daily journey) that covers the flat earth and keeps the heavenly ocean from crashing down. "Heavens" can also refer to an airy sky just below the dome, the realm of high-flying birds. With that in mind, check out Revelation 6:13,14!
At the end-time the sky ("heaven" in the KJ) is rolled up like a scroll and dislodged stars fall to earth like ripened figs in a storm! The ancient concept of heaven (today the dome-like illusion we call "sky") consisted of a real dome covering the earth, and it can be rolled up like a scroll. The stars are insignificant attachments (lights) on that heavenly dome and can be shaken loose in the violence of the end-time and fall to earth like so many winter figs blown down in a storm. Needless to say, there is no hint here of modern astronomy! It's the old, Babylonian cosmos! Forget about the second law of thermodynamics and the remarkable, modern discovery that the universe is running down. No connection.
For more details on the biblical flat earth, see my thread "Flat-Earth World" (03/23/2016 16:53).
6) [[So, for a lowly human to define in human terms a being vastly more complex with knowledge and the ability to make and use forces beyond our comprehension, is at best an exercise in futility. --Bob]]
Is this your defense of the fact that God runs afoul of scientific principles, especially the limiting principles? Is it that we just don't see far enough? If so, then you are begging the question. You are borrowing from your conclusion (God exists and has super-advanced powers) in order to get over the rough spots (the scientific contradictions) in your proof of God. That's a little like borrowing the car that you plan to buy so that you can get to the dealership to buy it!
7) [[The existence of an orderly universe containing life points to a Creator.
The Bible says: “Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God.” (Hebrews 3:4) --Bob]]
The universe isn't that orderly, Bob. Galaxies crash together. Stars blow up and take out any life over a wide region of space. Planets fall into unstable orbits and get flung off into deep space. Uranus is on its side, very likely due to a massive collision with another planet early in the solar system's history. The inner planets (those with long-lived surfaces) are pockmarked with massive craters. An asteroid crashed into earth and wiped out the dinosaurs and a whole lot of other things. Earth was a wreck for millions of years! The large-scale structure of the universe, itself, resembles cobwebs instead of the orderly arrangement of galaxies that might indicate a plan.
The science of abiogenesis has uncovered plenty of clues that lead us to think that life arose on earth by natural means. Biologists now understand how life is powered at the cellular level. They are closing in on its very essence. No mystery forces yet discovered! The marvelous diversity of species and their "designs" are now explained by biological evolution, one of the most spectacular successes in all of science. Nor is evolution a spent idea. Even now evolutionists are pushing into exiting, new territory. We now have most of the beams for the main framework of the history of the universe, beginning with the Big Bang, and God is nowhere to be found.
[[Although this logic is simple, many well-educated people find it to be powerful. For example, the late astronomer Allan Sandage once said regarding the universe: “I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery, but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing.”--Bob]]
This game of quotes proves nothing. No doubt I could find 10 people of the highest academic standing that don't see God in the picture! Most of them are atheists, so the task would not be that difficult.
Why do you assume that everything began in a state of absolute nothing? Is such a state even possible or coherent with respect to reality? We're dealing with physical reality, not with mathematics or philosophy. Reality may have its own ideas on how "empty" existence can get. If there is a bottom floor, as seems reasonable, then "something" has necessarily always existed. Your entire question becomes meaningless rather than profound! (Then there is the question of who created God. Outside of theological smoke and mirrors, it seems to me that any argument for an uncreated god applies equally well to an uncreated nature of some kind.)
8) [[Bible writers had scientific knowledge that was beyond the understanding of their contemporaries. For example, in ancient times many peoples believed that the earth was supported by an animal, such as an elephant, a boar, or an ox. In contrast, the Bible says that God is “suspending the earth upon nothing.” (Job 26:7) --Bob]]
No they don't! Their knowledge of science and their concept of morality never exceed Iron Age understanding. Who said that Job 26:7 is talking about a spherical earth floating in space? You have simply read your own modern understanding into that passage. Elsewhere, the Bible clearly speaks of the earth being supported on pillars. I suppose someone must have asked what ultimately supported those pillars. Why, it was God, of course! As to the shape of the earth, I discussed that in a secondary post on this thread, so I won't go there.
[[Many people feel that the most reasonable explanation for such advanced understanding is that Bible writers received their information from God. --Bob]]
Who are these "many people"? I suspect they are die-hard Bible believers! Serious Bible scholars, who really know their Bibles, don't find this "advanced scientific knowledge" in the Bible. That's the realm of desperate apologetics.
9) [[The Bible answers many difficult questions, the type of questions that when not satisfactorily answered can lead a person to atheism. For example: If God is loving and all-powerful, why is there suffering and evil in the world? Why is Religion so often an influence for bad rather than for good? See Titus 1:6 Could it be the unsatisfactory answers to questions has caused you to be where you are? --Bob]]
Unlike most Christians, whose heavenly afterlife is at stake, I have no special attachment to atheism. I'm there because, after years of careful study, I see that it has the best answers by far. The Bible may answer many difficult questions, but just don't look too closely at the reasoning! The existence of evil in the world has never really been explained by Christian theologians. The so-called "free will" defense just doesn't work--even if there is free will. The BEST answer to a lot of difficult questions (far better than the desperate efforts to plug holes in the dike) is that God doesn't exist.
Anyway, I have given you several challenges, which you asked for. Various secondary posts on this thread will add a few more challenges.
Another drive by poster? Waaat?
"This post is for the purpose of addressing some the questions raised regarding evidence of God's existence."
Okay, but no evidence?