TLDR version: Heaven and hell, sin and forgiveness make no logical sense. The concept is insane when examined. Your god would have to be evil to come up with such a system.
I always challenge theist when the conversation turns to: sin, forgiveness/repent, heaven and hell. Many theist never think it through logically. The concept of heaven is a central pillar most religions stand upon.
If repentance/forgiveness is all one need to get eternal heaven/paradise, why not enjoy doing whatever one wants in this life, and when one get close to death, repent. All one has to do supposedly is: be earnest, and not "deceive god, and accept god into his heart." Done. I am sure just about anyone on their deathbed will be very earnest and interested in accepting whichever particular god.
(Not that I personally will do that, on my deathbed. I am convinced beyond even a shadow of a doubt that any particular/god heaven idea does not exist.)
Many theist will respond with something along the lines of:
"Well that person did not truly accept god into his heart and even if they earnestly want to accept our god now, they are only doing it in desperation, which is attempting to deceive god, and god will know."
Okay... how about I wait until I am 80, but not on my death bed? I am not desperate yet.
The more intelligent theist will realize at this point they are on a slippery slope. And will say something along of the lines of:
"You can not deceive god, you can not choose when you accept god into your heart and beg for forgiveness, you always known god within yourself and denying yourself of him until a set time is deception."
The theist just changed the rules, (again,) because they are losing the argument. They oftentimes do not even realize they changed the rules mid argument.
Now, the rules for forgiveness and entry to heaven are: You cannot attempt to deceive god, and you always known god, you just don't know it or deny it, and if you knowingly denied our god, that is an attempt at tricking god, deception! You can't just repent whenever you like.
So basically: as soon as someone attempts to teach another person about their god, they, against that person's will, put them into a unsaid "contract" where they must accept their god or they will go to hell, or, at the very least, depending on their faith, not gain entry to heaven. Does not sound as nice and pretty as: "repent and accept god and you will go to heaven."
People that never learn of a particular god, either go to hell, or do not get access to heaven, (almost everyone,) or they get a pass, and are judged by their deeds to be sorted into everlasting reward or torment. (Also a lot of people, a lot more then the people that actually practice that particular faith will end up in heaven if people are judged based on their deeds rather than the accuracy of their faith)
To which I ask: "why bother practice your particular faith?" If someone is happy doing their particular faith, (or lack of,) why switch to yours. Why is your faith any better than anyone else's if your god does not care which faith you practice?
And if your god does care, why does your god only allow the tiny percentage of all people that ever lived, (remember he created everyone,) into heaven? Why set up a system where it is incredibly unlikely to know that god and to get rewarded? A god that only accepts a tiny minority of people that worship him and follow his rules just right, because they were born to the right family and raised in the right time and place, is an evil god if he creates each and every person knowing full well he is dooming billions upon billions of people to inevitably fail and end up with everlasting torment, or at the very least, no entry to heaven for no reason other than he picked "this particular soul" to be born in North America before the 15th century? Among countless other examples. Where it would be impossible to find your god.
We must conclude either your god is evil, or that the idea of heaven/hell, forgiveness and repentance is insane, and that it makes no logical sense. And offer no value except unburdening a person of awful things they done by being forgiven by an imaginary thing. If there is no heaven and hell, or god is evil, why bother worshipping it and trying to follow its rules. (Remember an evil god lets 95+ percent of all people that ever lived to get it wrong meaning even if you worshiped a god in fear, its is highly likely you are wasting your time worshipping the wrong god.
Of Course the most logical answer is: there is no god at all, and people made up the concept of heaven and hell and repentance and sin, in an effort to become a dominant and powerful religion that allows them to gain large amounts of wealth and power, and control people into doing crazy things like: being on the front lines of a war far from home, of which it is highly likely they will die or get horribly maimed.
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Theist: surprise me and actually respond to this post. Tell me how I am wrong. Naturally I also invite everyone else to respond as well.
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I'm always amazed to hear Christians come up with this version of Pascal's Wager. That's all this last-minute repentance twaddle is after all. Commit every heinous sin all through your life, and then confess and repent to receive a "get out of hell free" card at the last minute.
That's unacceptable to my atheist morality. I've been spitting in Sky-Daddy's non-existent eye for half-a-century now, so I'm not going to commit perjury if there really is a judgment day. I've also tried to live as decently as possible and help other people whenever I can. if that's not enough for Sky-Daddy, Sonny-Boy and Spook, fuck 'em and the ass they rode into town on. Bring on the brimstone and pitchforks. Better company down there, anyway.
LogicForTW,
Strictly speaking in the biblical Christian doctrine there is no heaven as commonly depicted. According to the fairy tale there is a gaudy bejewled 1,500 mile-sided golden cube called New Jerusalem with 12 gates behind a high wall on a waterless planet that has no darkness. That's supposed to be where Yehwah = the God of the Hebrews and the God of the armies = will spend eternity with his special creatures and souls of the people he didn't toss into the lake of fire on Judgment Day. The inhabitants will get one piece of fruit each month from the tree of life and the water of life that flows from Yahweh's throne. There are no marriages in the golden cube. In fact, there's nothing at all about there being any women at all in it.
The Islamic and Zoroastrian paradises are much better. The Mormon guys get their own planets and harems where they churn out babies like cockroaches. Other ethnocentric religions have their own special heavens and paradises with specific benefits.
And remember, in the biblical version you must be able to pass through one of the 12 gates dedicated to the twelve tribes of Israel. Yeshua never said that Gentiles would be allowed entry.
In Matthew 19:28-30 Yeshua told his 12 apostles that on Judgment Day they would be sitting on thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel. He didn't say that the Gentiles would be allowed entry.
I am impressed with your knowledge on all of this Diotrephes.
Certainly points out one way or another the idea of heaven, or no heaven, or a highly restrictive heaven all create large logic flaws for people that believe in god.
well I was once a theist, what you have left out is the possibilities of rewards that according to the Christian faith that I once believed offers.What I in particular have a problem with is the doctrine of reformers in election. that God explains that he would have mercy on whom he will have mercy,And leaving out a whole host of people Reformers explain that Gods choice can not be wrong since he is God. It seems unfair.Jesus in the Christian faith said in scripture that he gave an example of the workers in the vineyard saying that the first and last of the workers when it came to grace had the same rights, That no matter that the workers who worked say for 2 hours had wind up getting the same amount of pay, I t would seem that this is unfair, But as a theist who can really know why God allows this, God has a reason for this.So what I am saying applies to your question that if a person comes to god on there death bed thay get the same grace as if they had shown interest at a younger age. According to God and the Christian teaching they still get grace.But according to God there is a reward system in heaven it just doesn`t end with getting into heaven by Gods grace.What your error here is that you are coming from a human perspective rather then a Godly one.As for repentance well that is a necessary virtue for someone to enter gods kingdom according to saint Paul, He taught to repent and believe in the gospel which means good news.God is not evil, I t may look that way, but in the end Christianity teaches that we don`t really in our finite minds comprehend God.
Huh, interesting, multiple tiers of heaven, guess heaven is not perfect eternal bliss for everyone that gets in, in this particular christian faith anyhow.
I suppose they leave that little tidbit out when trying to gain new converts, or getting a late life confession. And forgiveness is not total forgiveness. Heaven/reward system makes a bit more logical sense in that system, but certainly loses a lot of it's attraction. Suppose its still beats hell.
If people cannot hope to truly understand their god, what hope do they have to follow his vague, shifting contradictory rules please god correctly? Seems the odds to get everything right to get into heaven keeps dropping. At what point do theist throw up their hands say "this is insane! I am not playing anymore!"
LogicForTW,
You've actually made a point about Old Testament doctrine. There were 12 tribes of Israel but the top dog was the Levites. They were no equal. The Levites got all of the money. They didn't have to do physical labor. They got the best food from all of te other tribes. The priests even got a fully-funded retirement system while everyone else had to work pretty much to the day they died. So if that system stays constant there will be multiple tiers in the golden cube ranging from steerage to five star super deluxe.
Pretty amazing all these people build their whole lives around a religion and its promise of reward w/o reviewing the little "evidence" that is available to them about the supposed vague punish/reward system.