Here is another concept that actually increases the likelihood that your god(s) do not exist for you theists to answer. First, let us assume a few falsehoods to be true.
- God is omniscient, meaning it knows all that has happened, is happening, shall ever happen, never happened, can happen, cannot happen, can be imagined and cannot be conceived,
- God is omnipotent, meaning the power it possesses is unimaginable, limitless, inhuman, as much as it wants, as much as it cares.
- God is omnipresent, meaning it is in all places at all times. Huge problem here, but that is another discussion.
- God is omnibenevolent, meaning it is all good, can only do good, cannot lie, cannot harm. Huge problem here also, but that is another discussion.
OK. Let us assume the above is true.
God is Omniscient, meaning it KNOWS beyond the shadow of any conceivable doubt that I was never, ever going to believe in it, or one of the many its.
Then why did it allow me to even be conceived and live as long as I have lived? Why not just go ahead and send me to Hell from the get-go? I mean as soon we become atheists, and it knows we are never going back to believing in it, why does it not just go ahead and end our lives and send us to Hell?
I already know all of your [theistic] arguments because I have heard them before. I just want to see if any of you [theists] can create a new argument I have not heard.
Nothing but love for you.
rmfr
Edit Addenda: added [theistic | theists] for clarification.
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I think most theist would know better to not try and defend the many many problems being omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent, let alone omnibenevolent.
Then again these people believe in an imaginary sky fairy to begin with.
I could spend hours going on about all the problems with any one of these, let alone a claim for all 4. I call them superman paradoxes. (like if superman moves fast enough to go back in time why not just go back in time far enough to prevent any kryptonite from entering earth's atmosphere?)
@arakish
"Then why did it allow me to even be conceived and live as long as I have lived? Why not just go ahead and send me to Hell from the get-go? I mean as soon we become atheists, and it knows we are never going back to believing in it, why does it not just go ahead and end our lives and send us to Hell?"
The only logical answer is He knows you will come to him at some point. Congratulations, you are saved. Hallelujah!
they might say, ''God lets you enjoy your life on earth so he can torture you more in hell''.
NewSkeptic,
"The only logical answer is He knows you will come to him at some point. Congratulations, you are saved. Hallelujah!"
But what about Deuteronomy 23:2 (KJV) = "2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord."
&
Deuteronomy 23:3-8 = http://www.bricktestament.com/the_law/racial%20tolerance/dt23_03a.html 5 pictures
So even if some of those people do want to believe they can't be admitted to the congregation of the Lord.
@ arakish
This god can not possibly exist. By definition you have created a four sided triangle. The definition of this god itself is contradictory.
"God is omniscient, meaning it knows all that has happened, is happening, shall ever happen, never happened, can happen, cannot happen, can be imagined and cannot be conceived,"
The idea of being omniscient, knowing everything, and taking any kind of action are self contradictory. If God knows everything, he already knows the choices he will make. He already knows the choices you will make. He already knows everything and therefore can not act freely in any way. He could not have stopped you from being born if he wanted to. The god you described has no choice. You can not know everything that will happen and then change it without already knowing that you were going to change it, in which case it would not be a change but something predetermined that you already knew you were going to do.
This God Can Not Exist - by definition.
I thought this thread was going to be about birth control!
Ha ha ha ha ha ..... Before I opened it and read. I thought it was going to be about Tin-man. You know he just turned 50.
@Cog
Hell, I fought way too hard to get where I am today. Sure ain't gonna give up now and check out early. Besides, the fun has just begun. I can now officially consider myself an "old fart" and be as ornery and cantankerous as I want. Been practicing in private for years. (Well, okay, okay.... I did sometimes experiment out in public once in a while. You know, just to get a real-world feel for it.) I'm almost disappointed that we live in a somewhat isolated area, because I sometimes wish for some stray kids to come around so I can yell at them, "Hey, you damn kids! Get off my lawn!" Then I could chase them away with a walking cane. Ah, perhaps one day....*dreamy faraway look in eyes*...
@Arakish:
Early Withdrawal
I've only ever seen that phrase in connection with time deposits, which have reduced interest rates for early withdrawals, and as a dubious birth control method advocated by professional male virgins in black dresses. By the time the man becomes aware enough to beat a strategic retreat, millions of his little swimmers will have already boldly gone across the final frontier.
As for the four omnis, I think the creators of god made the mistake of making their hero so powerful that there's no drama left in the story. There's nothing left for us humans to do that will make any difference. The Superman creators had the same problem, so they invented Kryptonite. Once in while Lois Lane or Jimmy Olsen have to rescue the Man of Steel.
Ahh, the pull out method, creating millions of unwanted babies every year. I wonder what our overall population growth trajectory would be if more people realized it does not work very effectively.
I know. "Early Withdrawal" was not the best, but at the time it was the funniest. It was like an oxymoron for life. Of course, I could have made it more understandable by adding "From Life." Might do that after posting this.
But yeah, the omnis are of the scale on the bullshit meter.
Basically, I wanted to see if any of the few Absolutists who do visit and are still members could come up with an argument FOR the omnis I ain't never heard before. All of them I have heard before (which includes those already posted) were easily debunked and left my Absolutist antagonist speechless.
rmfr
Here is an idea for you. "Early Withdraw From Life" If you accept Jesus as your savior and you are saved. Why not kill yourself (not intentionally but you can do loads of risky things) so that you can get to heaven. Why would god keep you alive so you might screw up and not make it?
Why wouldn't you kill your kids so that they can get into heaven. Yes, you might go to hell but wouldn't that be the ultimate sacrifice. You can save your children by killing them because jesuss loves the little children. Early withdraw can only be beneficial.
An omnibenevolent god would not permit atheists to exist, since atheists go to hell and hell is harmful. To be omnibenevolent, hell could not be part of its creation, and condemnation to hell would be outside its prerogative.
i can see that no theist around arak.....sorry..they all left the building...
@Quasi
Seems that way, but there is Breezy and JoC, but I guess neither has an argument...
rmfr
Matthew 7:13
" wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."
Sorry, I just wanted to see what it was like to stop thinking and simply regurgitate plagiarised platitudes. It's easy of course, but if I'm honest rhetoric is no substitute for reason or reasoning.
Here's a thought that seems apropos, 5.5% of Americans score an IQ (Weschler test) below 75 (Welner, 2003). Now does whatever deity theists believe exists reward blind guesses over intellectual rigour, or does this deity give a free pass to humans whose IQ negates the possibility of them understanding the concept of a deity at all? What about a person with a sub 75 IQ who is adamant no deity exists and when it receives a revelation is freaked and denies it? That's apostasy surely?
Now before any theists leap in, and and get all warm and fuzzy mumbling something about love and Jesus, try and imagine how long someone with such an IQ would have lasted if they were questioned by the Inquisition. Or how a schizophrenic episode or epileptic fit might have come across to these righteous servants of God.
Predation, parasitic organisms, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions and a whole host of diseases, and this is a benevolent design?
“The rain fell alike upon the just and upon the unjust, and for nothing was there a why and a wherefore.”
― W. Somerset Maugham, Of Human Bondage
Here is one of the best statistics I have ever heard. Did you know ------- 50% of Americans score IQs that are below 100. (I love this statistic.)
When I was in the Army, I heard an officer ask someone "how many soldiers in the company have a physical fitness score below the company's average physical fitness score?". The clerk started pulling out records but I just interrupted with "about half". They both gave me a dirty look, and asked how I could know that.
Exactly my point! Great story.
And here is good one. When someone asks an audience (a psych professor of mine did this once), "How many of you think you are above average intelligence?"
When you really look at the audience, the truly genius persons won't even raise their hand. And in actuality, most of those (about 2/3rds) who do raise their hand fall into your category of "below 100 IQ."
rmfr
There is a very logical reason for this. The genius in the room is the only one there who realizes all the stuff he does not know. "How can I be above intelligence when I don't understand ................................ etc, etc, etc...
How true is that? I always believe in this meme I read somewhere:
Scientists read lots of books and feel they still have a lot to learn.
Religious persons barely read one book and feel they know everything.
I ain't never numbered them, but I have two walls of books, along with several boxes of books I have read. And I still feel as if I am a dummy. There is just so much more I want to know, but also realize I cannot know it all.
rmfr
Edit: corrected misspellings
@Cognostic: the only one there who realizes all the stuff he does not know
That reminds me of a line in "Major Barbara" by George Bernard Shaw: "He knows nothing and thinks he knows everything. That points clearly to a political career."
That quote applies not only to politicians but also to apologists/theologians.
If god has all those properties, then your actions are only meaningful if you do not believe that such a god exists.
Kewl! Can I plagiarize it?
rmfr
@arakish
lol, sure. Although I'm certainly not the first to have that thought. Simone de Beauvoir in The Ethics of Ambiguity for example wrote it better (a passage that has recently been brought to mind on account of Kaustubh Kasture's "A Jain trying to understand Atheism" thread:
A marvellous post, well done.
I'm shortening it but I'm using it..... nice!
"As human beings, we are social animals. Our sociability is the result of evolution, not choice. Natural selection has equipped us with nervous systems which are peculiarly sensitive to the emotional status of our fellows. Among our kind, emotions are contagious, It is in our nature to be happy in the midst of happiness, sad in the midst of sadness. It is in our nature, fortunately, to seek happiness for our fellows at the same time as we seek it for ourselves. Our happiness is greater when it is shared."
https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/ethics-without-gods/
I often use a corollary of arakish's argument. If God is omniscient and omnipotent, then God knows what it would take to convince me and has not yet done that, as I remain unconvinced. Ergo, either God, as most people conceive of God, doesn't exist OR Calvinism is true and God has predestined me for Hell. Either way, my lack of belief is not only warranted, but inevitable.
This doesn't address the question of the existence of the supernatural or of gods in general, but is a severe problem to people close to me who are concerned with my eternal state. The problem is it tends to shut down the conversation as it is very confronting for close family and friends.
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