Does it matter whether a creator exists or not. Shouldn't we as a race be beyond the discussion of whether a creator exists shouldn't we be spending the time that is used trying to convince others that a creator exists or doesn't or praying to a being that may not exist shouldn't this time be used to make this world a better place for the generations that come after us and teach those generations that the only way to improve the planet we live on is to unite as the one race that we are no matter what makes us genetically different we still human and part of the human race.
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It doesn't matter whether one exists or not. However, superstitions are harmful in so many ways. Examples of that are Creationism interpreted as "science" and concepts like 'revelation' which aren't helpful and which tend to undermine efforts to teach critical thinking. Organised religion matters and needs to be challenged wherever it impinges on 'Separation of Church and State' or 'Freedom of and from Religion'. Organised religion and 'religious teaching' often impinges on politics, science, morality, the law and education.
Someone having an imaginary friend may not do much harm, but it would be foolish to ignore religious ideologies, superstitions, creed or dogma. It gets out of hand if never contradicted. That's why "New or Militant Atheism" (as many religionists view it) is so good for society.
@Orignal post
Would love it if we could all work on unity instead of what divides us. If various religions stopped trying to push their beliefs on others (including their own children/families) and all that energy and effort was spent on overall unity instead of creating divisions, that would be great!
Ofcourse if parents/others stopped pushing religion on kids, I suspect we would be 90+ % atheist within a generation or 2. Fine by me :)
Well yes, but people don't stop at believing in deities, they make up all sorts of claims about what their deity wants, and insist others must obey it as well, and the consequences never seem to stop at threats in the afterlife sadly. Though teaching the idea to children that they must believe or be separated from those they love forever, and tortured to boot, is an abysmal and barbaric practice on its own that any decent human ought to be ashamed of.
The short answer: "Not to me."
I think my answers also handles all the other stuff as well.
It is a proven historical fact that religion has caused many wars and conflicts. Thus, it can never be offered as a solution to strife. IMO that is like proposing gasoline as a fire suppressant. If we want a solution to strife, then we need to find a viable solution, not one that fits on anyone's agenda.
As well, there is or is not a creator. There is no middle ground. One does not accept a lie to support another agenda. There is no evidence of a creator, we may as well propose that magic unicorns get unhappy when there is war, and they stop farting colorful scented rainbows. We like rainbows, let's not fight.
@ David killens
It's humans that start wars and those in control of religions or country's using the power they control to promote their own agendas forcing their own political or religious beliefs on to those that don't follow those beliefs
The Crusades?
Children’s Crusade?
Second War of Kappel?
French Wars of Religion?
The bottom line is that if you desire to reduce strife, you do not attempt to use a method that has in the past actually caused strife.
No, it doesn't matter.
If a creator existed we would not be able to comprehend it. Our tiny brains can barely encompass the idea of a universe, most of struggle with astronomical distances. Say billion to average person they either reply "rich" or give you a name.
"Creator" is not a subject worth wasting time on.
People who push their idea of a creator god/gods are misled. But the sane need to push them back into their dank little boxes an out of public life.
@It's humans that start wars??? Really?
God commands Israel to kill the inhabitants of Canaan, including children.
1 Samuel: Now go and strike Amalek and edevote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, fbut kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’ ”
Joshua 4:13 - 13 About 40,000 ready for war passed over before the Lord for battle, to the plains of Jericho.
I'm just saying - The God of the Christian bible sure seems to have a whole lot to do with this WAR thing. If you happen to be Christian and a man, you can totally deny that it was you that caused the war and simply call it the will of your god.
@It's humans that start wars??? Really?
God commands Israel to kill the inhabitants of Canaan, including children.
1 Samuel: Now go and strike Amalek and edevote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, fbut kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’ ”
Joshua 4:13 - 13 About 40,000 ready for war passed over before the Lord for battle, to the plains of Jericho.
I'm just saying - The God of the Christian bible sure seems to have a whole lot to do with this WAR thing. If you happen to be Christian and a man, you can totally deny that it was you that caused the war and simply call it the will of your god.
@Ali
"Does it matter whether a creator exists or not."
It shouldn't, and if every person of faith in the world woke up tomorrow with the realisation that all gods are one and the only law is the golden rule, it wouldn't- but I can't see that happening, can you? While ever they have different gods with different laws, religion will continue to divide us.
Frankly, we're a long way away from an international discussion on whether a creator exists or not: we're stuck in the same "which god?" discussion we've been having for more than 2000 years!
"Shouldn't we as a race be beyond the discussion of whether a creator exists"
The simple fact is we aren't, Ali. We as a species are still squabbling over which god is the right god. Two thirds of the world believe in a god, and they kill each other over who's got the right one, all over the world.
" It's humans that start wars and those in control of religions or country's using the power they control to promote their own agendas forcing their own political or religious beliefs on to those that don't follow those beliefs"
I don't agree with you that politicians/religious leaders start wars by forcing their beliefs on people who don't share those beliefs. They do the opposite: they capitalise on SHARED beliefs. What will carry more weight with people, Ali? "Do this because I want you to" or "Do this because god wants you to?" God wanting it was one of Bush's justifications for Iraq. Every time a Western politician talks about the Axis of Evil or similar, s/he is capitalising on people's belief in the Christian idea of absolute Good and Evil. Every time a Western politician talks about humanitarian interventions, they're playing off the same belief.
If a creator exists then I guess it means that matters. The degree of concern for atheists would be up to the creator. I personally don't give a shit!
It's an interesting question but I think there's an even better one:
Does Dark Energy exist?
This is a theory put forth by the current scientific community for unexplained variations in the gravity field around stars versus around black holes. Yet it is only a theory (yeah yeah, don't castigate me), and there are many more. The theory I like is that these variations are introduced because of huge numbers that are calculated and then rounded to a practical degree. After a huge string of huge calculations, each one getting its own degree of rounding, you end up with an answer that doesn't look anything like what it should.
If we're going to talk about things we can't demonstrate to exist I think this would be a much more fascinating discussion. But this is the wrong website for it. ;)
Kataclismic:
Or.... we could go really deep into the quantum world of reality and discuss the reverence of the 12 dimensions on our daily existence.
Oh yea, right. Not the right forum for it.
I'd rather watch women's beach volleyball.
@ sushisnake
Here are several examples of political leaders that have pushed on to others using the power they control to control others Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, mao zedong, Kim Il-sung, Kim Jong IL
@Ali
Re: “Here are several examples of political leaders that have pushed on to others using the power they control to control others Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, mao zedong, Kim Il-sung, Kim Jong IL”
Sorry, Ali, but with the possible exception of Kim Jong Il, all the individuals on your list prove my point about politicians exploiting the shared values and beliefs of their populace.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenin%27s_Mausoleum
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/06/26/for-russian...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3560932/Why-Russia-wan...
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/the-fuehrer-myth-how-hitler-...
https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2005/03/why_did_so_man...
https://www.thoughtco.com/who-supported-hitler-and-why-1221371
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1386953/china-still-dealing-legac...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Il-sung
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2013/08/30/217186480/defectors-t...
http://world.kbs.co.kr/special/northkorea/contents/archives/supreme_lead...
@ David killens
Tiananmen Square an example of humans using political power to control and kill others who disagree with their political beliefs and even killing those that agree with them
I agree, this example of strife was motivated and fueled by politics.
But that is just one example. Since you have offered a valid example of a cause of strife, that does not mean that all causes of strife are just political.
We could play this game all day. You could give one example, I give one, so on and so forth.
I hope you understand that your grasping for failed logic gives the perception you are desperate.
@ sushisnake
Is that George Bush senior or junior as they both invaded Iraq
@Ali
Junior. Senior didn't need to call on god- he had Kuwait.
@ sushisnake
Apart from Adolf Hitler none of the above used religious beliefs to others if you were found to have religious beliefs in a communist state you would be sent to the gulags in the Soviet union for political re-education and China still uses political re-education. If political re-education is not forcing their beliefs onto others who don't believe the words that they spread.
@Ali
You're strawmanning me, Ali. I never said anything about religion.
You said:
"Here are several examples of political leaders that have pushed on to others using the power they control to control others Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, mao zedong, Kim Il-sung, Kim Jong IL"
I gave you many links evidencing the fact that all the leaders you listed with the possible exception of Kim Jong-Il enjoyed a great deal of public support. The public shared the values and beliefs the leaders proclaimed.
@ sushisnake
Does that public support also include the hundreds of millions that where sent for political re-education
@Ali
1. If you read the real history of some of the examples you mentioned, it is not 100's of millions to re-educate to atheism. It was a few million sent to re-educate them to worship the regime in charge. North Korea for example, they are basically trained to worship what is essentially a monarchy there. Same with several other examples you listed.
2. If you want to talk people against their will being forced to believe in something, all the other major religions have near monopoly on that, with numbers in the many billions of people killed or converted against their will.
In the Soviet union between 1934-1947 10 million were sent to the gulags this released in 1989 by Soviet historians
10 million does not equal hundreds of millions, Ali.
The gulags were used to house all kinds of people including common criminals. So that 10 million is inflated as well. Not that I really care.
@ cyberLN
It only covers what happened in one of the communist countries and in a 13 year time period it also doesn't include the 200 million plus were sent for political re-education in China. Plus the 2 million plus that died at tiananmen Square or those sent for political re-education in Vietnam or North Korea and those who were sent to the gulags outside of that time period in the Soviet union
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