Apparently people say they knew him and that he is totally genuine. They say they went to school with him and he was a total atheist until this experience, but I have my doubts. I feel he may have lied to make a profit.
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BS!
It does not matter what he says.
Will PLEEEEEASE stop posting these absurd NDE posts? They don't prove anything!
mykcob4,
IMO people who believe in NDE make snake handling church goers look sane. They are on a completely different planet.
but there isn't a rational explanation for NDEs. The people don't have measurable brain activity during experiences. Oxygen deprivation causes strange hallucinations that make no sense. NDEs are completely vivid. Medicine actually decreases the amounts of NDEs which means it cannot be a cause. Awareness during anesthesia exists in 1 out of 1000 cases according to Dr. Jeffrey Long, and yet NDEs occur in about 3% of people, so the numbers are too high. Also, most people who have anesthesia awareness report uncomfortable painful experiences while NDEs make a lot of sense. DMT in the brain was recently debunked too. There is no adequate explanation, and it seems many people see Jesus in their NDEs
Got a peer reviewed source for that claim?
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Got a peer reviewed source for that? In fact its worse; fighter pilots who are exposed to oxygen deprivation report "vivid visions". So the idea that oxygen deprivation can't cause "vivid visions" seems to be wishful thinking. I'd suggest that your fascination with this subject is also wishful thinking.
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I'm sorry but that also sounds like complete bullshit; starting with the word "medicine".
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Right, and other people see deities from other religions. Is that evidence for the existence of those other deities? Of course not; and it isn't evidence for Jesus either.
I have a few sources which do make all these explanations seem less real:
here we have an article which talks about how materialist explanations don't work:
http://ncu9nc.blogspot.ca/2013/07/materialist-explanations-of-ndes-fail....
This article was written by Penny Sartori, who researches NDEs and is a nurse:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2545668/Is-proof-near-death-expe...
here she talks about how the oxygen theory and the idea of medicine or drugs causing NDEs cannot actually cause NDEs.
and here is an interview which a neuroscientist who does talk about flat eegs and how he believes NDEs cannot be explained with a lack of/ such low brain activity
http://skeptiko.com/eeg-expert-on-near-death-experience/
I asked for peer reviewed material, not blogs.
Russian-Tank,
If Yeshua doesn't look like this then it isn't him = http://www.thebricktestament.com/revelation/future_revealed_to_guy_on_ti...
RussianTank: "but there isn't a rational explanation for NDEs. The people don't have measurable brain activity during experiences.."
Performing an EEG during surgeries or CPR is not commonly done. During these procedures there is no way to measure brain activity. Especially CPR. Cardiac monitors, yes. Not EEGs. More theist bullshit.
A story no matter how sincere is NOT evidence.
Russian Tank
You are obsessed with NDE stories, yet none of them are verified as being true. You claim that these people dead saw jesus and came back to life based simply on their testimony. Not credible. But let's just look at what they claimed they saw.
They say they saw jesus. In every case, these people were christian or came from a christian environment. They saw what they wanted to see. It's called IMAGINATION!
There are many cases where people were clinically dead yet revived. As for their so-called vision, that is a product of their memory and nothing more.
I wish you would stop these nonsense post. You know before you ask that we atheists will not believe it or any story unless there is credible evidence. A story about someone that is "clinically dead" that revives and then tells a wild story about heaven and jesus is not credible. Plus the fact that the story always emerges after a time whereby the teller has been exposed to more things that they can wrap up into the fictitious story.
Mykcob4
Let me ask you this: in 2020 there will be a scientific study completed regarding NDEs and the whole consciousness surviving death theory. If it turned out that people using strict protocols and a vigorous approach, and someone was able to verify an out of body experience while their EEG was totally flat, would you believe that NDEs might be a real phenomenon?
Also, if it was true that all our theories for NDEs didn't explain it, would you believe them or would you just say we don't have a rational explanation for it?
Good luck doing that. I'd bet everything I own against a penny that won't happen. These "phenomenon" never withstand scrutiny. That is why you had to link blogs.
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We already know they happen! The question you should be asking is are they indicative of anything supernatural.
Nyarlathotep
That's what I meant. If it were really proven would you then think the supernatural may exist? Also if it were scientifically proven that oxygen and drugs and DMT in the brain all aren't causes for NDEs, would you believe that then?
If what was proven? That people have silly visions when they are not of sound mind and body? Or that these visions are messages from supernatural powers? Do you have any idea what it would take to establish that?
I have an interesting thought experiment: you make up whatever experiment you want, and make up the results of that experiment. Do so in such as way to establish that NDE's are supernatural events (or whatever it is you want to believe); and post it here. I'm curious what you think would be proof of such non-sense. Please be explicit.
@Russian Tank
Funny thing about science you have to eliminate all the variables to get an honest result. Also, an independent source must verify the experiment and get the exact same results over and over again. Then it is peer-reviewed and scrutinized. If EEG was the only means of telling if the subject was indeed dead then that would be fine and if the EEG could actually detect final death, but it' can't. Also, you'd have to find candidates and subjects that you know that will die and know that will come back to life, and know that would have an NDE or OBE or both, they can't. Also, you'd have to find a subject that has no prior knowledge of a god, you won't. So the study is a non-starter and is probably being conducted and or funded by some religious organization. This should tell you that they will have a predetermined conclusion.
Why are they waiting for 2020? That is odd. I smell a rat.
In answer to your question. I don't know, I would have to investigate the study, how it was conducted, what they actually did, who were the subjects, who funded it and why, who actually did the study, if the study met scientific criteria.
As to your second question, I don't believe anything without solid credible evidence.
@mykcob4
I like your answers, thank you. I would like to ask you your opinion on something: I feel the only thing keeping me in Christianity is fear in case I am wrong. I fear these NDEs because they seem to indicate hell existing, and I don't believe ANYONE, even the worst people in all of history, deserve to be tortured forever. I think that some punishment would be justified, even welcomed to the worst of the worst, but no human being should always be punished, as they wouldn't have a chance to better themselves.
The reason I am waiting for 2020 is because that is the only scientific NDE test that I am aware of. Most scientists explain NDEs away as lack of oxygen, hypoxia, or meds. I don't know if I am satisfied with those explanations, as a person can have an NDE under different conditions where they do not have low levels of oxygen. Therefore, I believe it is more complicated than that. I guess my question is, do you think I should just assume NDEs are right and continue to believe in religion, or should I take the opposite approach, and dismiss NDEs until 2020 IF the results come back indicating that NDEs are in fact, supernatural?
I kind of want to get out of religion for a multitude of reasons (some better than others) I don't like the idea of being watched all the time, and I feel that certain aspects don't make too much sense. I am also kind of hypocritical, because I have no problem shrugging Islam or Hinduism or any other faith off, yet I have a hard time doing that with Christianity. I guess it is because I grew up believing and everyone around me did, and now these NDEs which try to imply that NDErs only see Jesus, and Jesus is the only way to salvation, with hellish NDEs having demons and fire pits is what is scaring me enough to kind of keep me roped into the faith.
So do you think I should keep believing until 2020 and stop if they disprove NDEs, or should I stop now until they actually prove NDEs are real?
It does seem to me you're putting all your metaphorical eggs in one basket (NDEs) and the fear of hell. This isn't what religion truly is. Religion is supposed to be living with purpose. Doing what make makes you truly happy. This, I believe equals doing God's will.
If you're belief in religion is based solely on NDEs, you're not really living religion. You fear it. And that's no way to live.
Wait, are you suggesting that there is only one cause for NDE's? That seems odd.
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How many times have we discussed people from other religions/cultures having NDE's that involve deities other than Jesus; yet you continue to discuss them as if this is not the case?
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See you didn't wait for science to disprove any number of other religious non-sense did you? Why make an exception for NDE's? Don't you think it is odd that you keep making holes to preserve the religion you were raised in; and not any of the others?
Nyarlathotep, I agree with you, it's just that the consistencies of NDEs scare me. If it were proven without a doubt that NDEs are just the work of the brain, I would absolutely dismiss religion. I totally fear the idea of dying and being tortured forever. There are many videos about this and these people publish books and some even claim they used to be atheists until the experience and then they become preists after their NDEs. They cry during their experiences and sound so convincing that I don't think they are intentionally lying. Then it's always the same message: accept Christ before it's too late, and that scares me. Then there are videos of people who claim they were devout Muslims until they had an NDE or a dream where they went to hell and then called out for help and Jesus rescues them. I just can't imagine how a brain under so much stress could cause such a vivid hallucination and why is it that in these stories so many ppl say when they call out for help that either a bright light appears as Jesus and rescues them or that God's hand pulls them out? Also I looked even in Arabic and I couldn't find a single NDE where a Muslim met Muhammad. The video I posted above (in case you haven't seen it) is about a man who claims he was an atheist and on his construction job, he accidentally drank some poisonous fluid, needed a blood transfusion, and while he was intoxicated had this NDE where Jesus approached him and took keys and unlocked a door where he saw hell. It was the traditional fire and brimstone, and he saw his friends, all trying to high five him , until they started to decay and turn to demons. Now he is a pasture, wrote a book, and people who knew him said he used to mock religion until this experience.
Russian-Tank, don't be so scared, man.
Most of religions claim that people who don't believe in their god/s or believe in the wrong god, will go to hell. If Christians are right, at least 5 billion people will spend eternity in hell, if hindus are right, then at least 6 billion people will spend eternity in hell... and so on.
They all claim that their god is good and righteous, but do you think a merciful god would allow billions of people to burn in hell for eternity (!), just because they grew up in a familiy with the "bad" religion, even though they were good people?
Near death experiences are just the result of sth happening to your brain. I don't know if you remember dr. Alexander, who claimed to have been in heaven during a comma a few years ago... His depiction of heaven was very similar to others' who had DMT drug but different from other NDE. Drugs, stress, and other factors, can alter our brains... That's all.
Remember that people who experience NDE haven't been dead in fact, they were just in a critical state, so no-one has been really dead, therefore they cannot tell if heaven or hell are real.
And I bet they are not.
Btw, here's a NDE of a Muslim. The angel supposedly said to him, that he was called by Allah Almighty.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq-qX-pJrd4
There are several on Youtube, also hindus, buddhists and from other religions.
@Russian Tank.
First, you shouldn't ask me this question because the only one qualified to answer that question is you.
We are born atheists, everyone. We are born to parents or guardians and a society that has been dominated by a religion. If you are born in a certain part of the world that part is dominated by a certain type of religion. Therefore you are indoctrinated into believing in that religion even before you are born. Renouncing that religion is a fight. You have to submit to reason to understand that religion is false. You are fighting centuries even millennia of social indoctrination. Every aspect of your life has been dictated by and dominated by a religion.
Now I can tell you that there is no hell. Reason should also tell you that, but it doesn't answer what happens when we die. Your fear is just that. You fear the unknown. It is this fear that religion has used to keep a grip on you. The ability to say in your own mind that "I don't know" will set you free from that fear and loose the grip of religion and religious dogma. But you also must be able to say that "I will not accept anything as fact until it is proven with CREDIBLE evidence that it is fact."
This should also tell you that the proposed 2020 "study" is also a fallacy. It has to be. there are too many variables that cannot be solved to make it credible. Variables that I mentioned before. How could anyone predict that someone will die have an NDE and revive? They can't so they don't even know who to test, how to test them, or when to test them. That is why all the scientist that you have read about have dismissed or explained away NDE testimonies. They simply are not credible and cannot be credible.
For your peace of mind, I will blatantly tell you that there is no hell. That is a concept that christians adopted 500 years after christianity began, and the idea was taken from the Egyptian Book of the Dead. The reason christianity adopted it and when it did is because the church needed a consequence for QUESTIONING AUTHORITY (the authority being the church). If they threaten damnation (hell) most people if not all would not dare to question christianity and the authority of the church.
There is no hell.
There is no heaven.
There is no god.
mykcob4,
thank you very much for your thoughtful answer. I really appreciate it! It's true that the studies thus far do have holes in them, and you are absolutely right that the 2020 study will have holes in it too. I was browsing the internet some more and I found one or two out of body experiences that sounded quite convincing at the surface i.e. one woman claims that while she was "dead" she noticed a red hair woman enter the room she was in and write stuff down and that certain conversations were going on which were later "verified". These details (if they are in fact true) sound compelling, but I applied some of the "I don't know logic", and rather than posting it on here and various forums asking people how they could debunk it, I simply said "I don't know". I don't know who this lady is, I don't even know if it actually happened. All I have is some text that I read. Even if it did happen that she somehow picked up these things while she was "out", at best I can say I don't know how it happened, and that is the truth. I also found one NDE testimony where a woman claimed she died and went to heaven where she met angels, God, and aliens! She said the aliens spoke telepathically with her (that's a new one)! I also noticed that some (not all) of the hellish NDEs took place while the people had snorted all these kinds of drugs, and as many people on this forum have pointed out, demonic monsterous looking creatures are common in movies. I did a google image search on demons, and there were many images of creatures we would see in sci-fi movies. I guess in all of these cases, although this can be hard for me to say because I still have some fear, it is more likely rationally that the brain is not functioning correctly, and that what we see here is our brain trying to make sense of what is going on. One man on the NDERF site claimed he was originally an atheist, and that he had a mostly positive NDE, and after the fact, he said he went to a doctor because he was so confused and the experience felt so real that he needed help. I am still wondering why these experiences seem so real, even to people who were atheists for most of their lives, but I guess we cannot answer everything. I also saw a clip of Matt Dillahunty and Tracie Harris where they raised a good point: if there really was a God and he was moral, and hell really existed, wouldn't it be better if God gave us all equal evidence that it existed? Why is it that God decides to put his finger on some people and show them Jesus and that they could go to hell, but others don't get this "evidence"? That would not be fair at all, and it would keep skeptics being skeptics.
You also mentioned before that Dante's Inferno is a depiction of hell, and many NDEs do have that exact deptiction, plus demons. I know that hellish experiences occur 3 ways: 1) when the person is high on drugs 2) when a person dreams 3) NDEs. I know that 2 out of 3 of these can easily be explained, so it is very likely NDEs have the same amount of value.
Thanks for encouraging me to think through this critically. I am still not 100% convinced there is no hell, but I feel a lot better, and hopefully in the upcoming years, there will be a better understanding of NDEs which can put this afterlife theory fully to bed for people like me who are somewhat on the fence.
I think once fear is gone for most people, rationality starts to grow in the form of little seedlings, and blossom. The seeds are always there, but fear prevents them from growing.
Russian Tank, I'm really moved by reading your words, and I'm happy that you've been searching for facts in order to rationalize it.
That's what we should do with our fears, face them instead of feeding them.
Well done!
Your closing statement represents the closet doubt most believers keep shuttered up and dare not openly declare. Let it out and feel better about yourself.
Another fun thing that I began to realize is that theists who push NDEs don't seem to make a distinction between clinical death and biological death. It's as though they think as soon all activity stops, you are instantly moved from being completely alive to completely dead.
It also appears the soul doesn't make this distinction either. As soon as you are clinically dead, it's like the soul doesn't wait around to see if you are "really" dead. It just goes, "Nope. I'm getting the hell outta here!"
If cryogenics actually ended up working, image all those poor souls getting ripped out of Heaven in a century or two when all those heads and bodies are resuscitated.