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I will be honest I did not plan on thoroughly engaging in this debate (with anyone) however, at this point, given your response I feel obligated to at least show you the same respect you have shown me in your reply.
To summarize and paraphrase what you said and I disagree is that basically Free will + All-knowing can NOT = God. I guess let me ask you a question, why can’t God be all knowing and powerful? Can you prove that your conclusion is 100% true? I do not wish to get into a philosophical debate because I honestly think, for the most part, philosophy is a waste time, For argument sake, its seems to me that you are possibly ok with the idea or debate around an all powerful and an all knowing entity but, you don’t think they go hand in hand since you said “Well if you throw in free will, suddenly the future is no longer 100% accurately predictable, and suddenly you have a gap in "gods" all knowing knowledge.” My question to that comment is how do you know that “future is no longer 100% accurately predictable” and why and how are you choosing and deciding the limits of this All powerful and knowing entity? Logically speaking if it’s the only all-powerful and all knowing entity then, by default that means you and I know far less than it does therefore, you have no basis on for your conclusion since you are arguing/debating about something far greater and above your own level of intellect.
So to summarize I am asking you
1) Why can’t Allah be all knowing and powerful?
2) Can you prove that your conclusion is 100% true?
3) Why and how are you choosing and deciding the limits of this all powerful and knowing entity?
4) What basis do you have for your conclusion about an all-powerful and all knowing entity since by default you are arguing/debating about something far greater and above your own level of intellect?
5) Is it possible you are talking about something you simply do not understand and you are trying to give it human traits and limitations?
I have a lot more i can say but, i would like to see your answers first.
Thank you
He didn't claim that; and pretty much the rest of your questions are related to that misunderstanding.
I recommend re-reading his argument.
actually he did. Not in those exact words but, same thing. I recommend re-reading his argument.
@SfT
My exact quote from post http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/do-you-believe-free-wi...
"Therefore a "god" can be either all knowing and there is no free will, OR a "god" is NOT all knowing and there is free will."
I am not saying god/allah "can't Allah be all knowing and powerful?" I am saying a god or allah cannot be all knowing and for there to be free will.
Although I do have arguments for why god/Allah cannot be all knowing and all powerful, but that is a different argument and would take us slightly off topic I think.
Thanks. As my signature states, I like to debate.
Let me correct you, that is not the summary and paraphrase I was going for, let me reword what you said to what I meant: An all knowing (god, allah, anything!) means there is no free will. - OR - if there is free will, then it is impossible for anything to be all knowing.
My conclusion (that I corrected for above?) Actually I think it is possible via math. Although simple math we all learned in high school, the equation would be irrational as it involves infinity, an irrational number, (all knowing would be represented as an infinite number.) If we use calculus "limits" we could step away from irrational numbers, as knowledge of everything is not infinite but near infinite. Perhaps someone already has done the math proof, I can try and look it up if you want. I unfortunately do not have the time to write such a proof my self.
That is too bad you think that, I think philosophy is amazing, but why limit yourself to anything as areas of study? All the sciences have sprung from philosophy. I would describe your prophet as a philosopher too.
Yes for the sake of this argument I am willing to accept the premise of an all knowing being. As without it there is no argument. The point of the argument was again trying to explain that if something is truly ALL knowing, you cannot have free will.
Literally by definitions, all this is theoretical, everything we are talking about here is "defined" into existing. And we have to use mutually accepted definitions of keywords in this conversation to be able to have a conversation at all.
I will attempt to go through this step by step.
1.) For something (god, allah, anything!) to "know" everything, it must know not only everything that happened in the past, but also what is currently happening, and then to be able to know everything about the future.
2.)If god, (I also mean allah or whatever else people claim to know everything,) were to know everything it cannot be limited by only knowing all possible outcomes, because then god would not know everything because it would not know which outcome that is going to be taken, a god may be able to guess which outcome is most likely, but a god cannot be entirely sure, hence a gap in an all knowing god's knowledge, and since the word "all" is used, that means the god is no longer all knowing. It could still be "very knowledgeable, and knows a lot more than humans, but it no longer fits the literal definition of "all knowing."
3.) So for god to know everything, there is no possible unknown outcomes, for there to be no possible unknown outcome, that means everything is predetermined. If everything is predetermined, then by definition, free will is impossible, we may think we can make choices, but everything was going to happen the way it was going to happen, including the thought process we make to make a decision.
I am not. I am pointing out a basic incompatibility in word definitions that people use for the phrase "all knowing" and the phrase "free will."
If a supposed god idea wanted to come down and explain this inconsistency that would be great, but it doesn't, I am not arguing against a supposed all knowing far greater than me "god." I am debating with you, of whom I assume to be around the same level as I am in intellect, another human being with reading and writing skills.
That is not what I am arguing here, (different debate for a different day if we want that debate.)
Maybe, via math, not sure though, I would like to think it is unnecessary, that we can both agree that the two phrases with examination of the definitions etc. We can both agree that the two thoughts are incompatible, that you cannot have free will and have all knowing, for anything to know absolutely everything including the future, that means the future must be predetermined, otherwise a god could not see past the first "free will" choice anything makes, and with trillions upon trillions of free will choices being made on this planet surface alone, that would mean a god would know no where near "everything." Even if a god was really good at predicting which choice was the most likely.
By the words and definitions people provide for this all knowing entity. I did not describe allah or god or whatever as all knowing, but lots of followers of various god DID. I am pointing out the limits people put on their god concepts in describing their god concepts.
I feel like you kind of repeated yourself with this question, and I have answered it already above. Let me know if you want to answer this one directly.
I struggle with the question of is there free will or not. And I do feel it is fairly likely we humans as a whole may not be able to fully properly answer that question. If anything, the logic points to that none of us have free will and everything IS predetermined, but that is a scary thought for me, I do know at the very least, to me it seems like I have free will, the amount of complexity my life, my body, this world and how everything interacts is so incredibly immense, that I can see why free will seems real. But just because it seems so incredibly complex to me, does not mean it necessarily is too complex to be anything but free will.
I do not feel I am giving the various god ideas or anything else that could be all knowing human traits. If anything I frequently think part of the problem of many theists is that they keep "humanizing" their god ideas. To me, if there was something far greater than us humans in intellect and power, it would be nothing... absolutely nothing like humans. It would not have jealousy, or pride, or anger, or satisfaction or hate, or any of those human emotions.
If a human were to greatly expand their power and knowledge and were able to live and operate at a high level for millions of years or more, that human would very un-human like. Could you even imagine what someone like Leonardo Da Vinci be like if he still lived and operated at high level today?
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@Logic
First off, I want to start off by apologizing for my misunderstanding of your previous claim/statement and mis-paraphrasing what you said. Thank you for the clarification.
What’s the difference between infinite and near infinite? I understand what near infinite meaning means if we were to use it as an expression in our everyday speech but, what exactly are you trying to say here? Trying to avoid another misunderstanding.
Let me elaborate more on my previous statement of it being a waste of time. If taken too far to the point to where it ultimately leads to nowhere then it’s a waste of time. If kept within a strict frame/scope and its limits are understood then it could be a useful tool however, as far as I can tell I personally have not ever relied on philosophy to solve a real world problem for. Or maybe I have and I just don’t know it.
That’s something we would disagree on since for me, I apply his teachings in my daily life unlike philosophy. By the way, do not get me wrong, I am for philosophy as long as it’s not taken too extreme. I am sure what is considered extreme will differ from person to person.
It’s actually very interesting you bring this up because there is a narration in Arabic that I will do my best to accurately translate. Its “Allah has knowledge of all things that have happened, what did not happen and how they would have happened if they did happen.” I am not trying to debate that translation but, I think it’s worth sharing since I personally believe in that and I think it kind of adds to your point of what such an entity should know.
I think the quote I translated from Arabic to English answers this point.
Since we are talking about our personal understandings of free will and all-knowing lets limit its understanding to what you and I personally understand. I see where you are coming from and can even see how you have reached that conclusion but, I still disagree with your final conclusion. I say that because my understanding of free will and everything is pre-determined differs. I believe that God knows everything we would do because before we were born he already wrote down everything we would do based off the free will that we have. Let me clarify, he did know say “ok you will go and debate/talk to Logic on an atheist forum” rather, we were given that free will to do whatever we wanted then, based off what I came here and am choosing to talk to you, he knew I would choose that before I did. He did NOT lead nor guide me to this but, knew I would end up doing this. Makes sense? For example, if you let a 5 year old run around free in a candy store, you already know what they will do. You did not guide nor force that kid to start eating all the candy but, you already knew the outcome. While that might not be the best example in the world I think you know what I am saying. If not, please let me know and I will further clarify.
I think my responses above address this and I hope I accurately showed why I do not think the two thoughts are incompatible.
I did as I typed that response in a hurry so I apologize for that.
For argument sake, let’s say I share your view on not knowing whether we have free will or not. Why does it matter? It’s not like either of us know what is predetermined. I have even had a similar discussion with other Muslims. At the end of the day, none of us know what is and is not predetermined, and even if you believe everything is, how does that change your daily life (on a practical level)?
@SfT
In terms of math, one is a rational number and one is irrational. It has been too long since I done calculus and other high level math classes like number theory for me to not embarrass myself trying to explain it. I was just bringing up that I believe a proof is possible, but I would need to dust off some of my old calculus books plus perhaps my number theory book to write up such a proof, just my limited knowledge of math, I believe a proof could be made via math on that knowledge of everything does have a finite number it would just be incredibly large number.
If you want we can talk more about this, I will have to go brush up on my math as it has been a while for me. But I think this would be getting off topic.
Fair enough, I even agree with that, you can go "to far down the rabbit hole" on philosophy and not accomplish much if anything, but there is also a possibility of real new discovery there that can lead to whole new things. I would say much of the easier philosophical conclusions and branches of discovery in philosophy has likely been mostly "mined out" now in terms of individuals finding new discoveries as we humans have been studying philosophy for a long time.
Why not both? That he was a philosopher among other things, I would honestly take that as a compliment to Muhammad that he was also a philosopher, as in I am saying he is a person that would think a lot, someone that would ponder about his existence and why things are the way they are. Philosopher and prophet are not mutually exclusive, in fact I think quite often they go hand in hand.
Yeah, fully agree, all knowledge should include what has happened, what has not happened, and what would of happened. (Although I would argue knowing what would of happened is redundant if they already know what will happen.) You did not mention, at least here, about anything about the future. When I hear someone say "all knowing" I assume that also includes knowing what will happen in the future. If it does not include the future then such an entity is no longer ALL knowing.
Sure, makes sense, but that does not have to do with what I am talking about here. I am not talking about god it self giving or not giving free will, I am talking about is: if free will is possible at all if there was an entity that knew everything, including everything that will happen in the future, fully filling the commonly accepted definition of the phrase "ALL knowing."
Knowing that a child will eat candy in a candy store is simply knowing, it is not ALL knowing. All knowing would be so much more then that. All knowing would be knowing 1 billion years from now your great x1 50 million grand kid will like the number 3 instead of his usual favorite number 2 when the kid was exactly 8 years, 5 months 28 days 11 hours and 2 minutes old from birth. All knowing is knowing every single possible winning lottery number for every lottery for as long as there's lotteries. All knowing is knowing every single electron position on every single atom in the entire universe and knowing how they will interact. And what the results of those interactions would be even a million years from now.
Honestly this is really an interesting discussion for me. The concept that if there was any sort of entity that is truly all knowing means free will of any sort is impossible is a simple one to me, but I am quickly seeing the challenge of trying to explain it to others that makes it as simple as it is to me to them. It really is 2+2 = 4 to me.
Hmm let us try this: I am thinking of a number between 0 and a trillion. An all knowing entity (let's say your god idea for simplicity sake,) already knows what number I thought of. That entity already knew thousands upon thousands of years ago that I would one day think of this number in this conversation with you. This would be required ability for a being people say is all knowing to know. I just changed the number I was thinking. No problem an all knowing god already knew that. Already knew I would do that as soon as this "god" gained the ability to know everything. I changed my mind again, I really want to test this "god's all knowing" knowledge. But of course once again god already knew since the beginning that I would do this. And it was not a "I think he will probably do this" it is a I KNOW logicFTW will do this. If an entity already knew all this since the beginning, did I really choose those numbers? Did I really choose to pick another number? Did I choose to have this conversation?
Now me doing a little bit of future prediction of my own, I eithir accurately or inaccurately predict your next response will be something along the lines of: well god can see all possibilities.
To which I reply, knowing all possibilities is not ALL knowledge. Because god would lack the knowledge of which one I would pick. Saying: LogicFTW may pick the number 13 or 666.666 or 6,982,130,912,830.612831245 (my fingers hitting numbers on my keyboard as fast as they can) is knowledgeable, but not all knowledge because god apparently does not know which one I would pick. In fact that is a HUGE blow to all knowledge. Even I lowly little human me can guess at possibilities and I certainly do not have all knowledge. If god can not see past my "free will choices" then god's ability to accurately predict the future for all things collapses entirely. There would be no way god could know every single winning powerball jackpot lottery numbers if god does not know what "free will" choices we make. God may still be highly knowledgeable, but most certainly not all knowledgeable.
Going the other way, how could a god be all knowledgeable? Well god would know everything, including what "free will" choices I will make long before I was ever born. But.. guess what. Then it is no longer free will choices, it has all already been decided, there was no, well god sees in my "free will" that I will pick either 13 or 666.666 or any other number. He already knew my first number picked was 13, but I would settle on 666.666 meaning what I did was not free will, but what I was always going to do.
True free will would mean god does not know for sure what you are going to do. Which be definition means god does not know everything.
I am very glad you brought that up. I think there is hope for you understanding this. I agree it does not matter in our daily lives if there is free will or not. I bring this up to simply state that the human constructed idea of an "all knowing god" concept precludes the concept of "free will." Two thought concepts created by humans, that I want to point out are at their basic level two competing incompatible thoughts you cannot have both. To the same level of basic incompatibility of saying I am on the north american continent at the same time I am on the australian continent. I am simply too small to be in both locations at the same time. That does not mean much in everyday life, but if I were to claim that I was, I would expect people to say no, that is not possible and explain why.
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▮Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
▮Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
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LogicFTW, thanks! That was great!
Thanks, I was afraid it was TLDR and no one would read it.
@SfT
I tried and I failed to explain this. I will try one last time. I will try and keep it real simple.
Let's say I got real stupid drunk one night and decided to play russian roulette with a revolver with a 6 barrel spinning chamber, with myself. 5 of the bullets are blanks and one is a live round. The live round and the blanks are indistinguishable from one another. There is no way I can cheat, to me it is a real random game of chance.
Each time, I would give the chambers a good spin, then put the gun to my head and pull the trigger. If I do not die, (a blank) I put a new blank in the chamber and give it a good spin. I plan to do this 6 times. Everything is well enough balanced that no trend appears in the randomness.
An entity that knows everything, (we will call it god,) will know if I survive this idiotic game or not and would even know if I was stupid enough to play all 6 rounds of this crazy game if I survived that long.
Lets say this "all knowing god" knows I will die, that I will play, and the first 3 times are blanks and the 4th is the real bullet. How would a god know this? And also know I do not come to my senses and stop playing before my 4th try at this crazy game. A god would have to know my decisions every step of the way, would have to know exactly how hard I spin that barrel and where the spinning will stop. If a god did not know all this, it would not be an all knowing god.
An all knowing god could write down in a book 1000 years ago, saying in 1000 years LogicFTW will die on the 4th round of a game of russian roulette.
If I make a "free will" decision to stop playing this game after the 2nd round, suddenly god would be wrong. He did not know everything, I live on, and I go on to find the cure for cancer, saving millions upon millions of human lives. Forever altering the course of history for billions in a profound way. Completely wrecking god's knowledge of what will happen to anybody 1001 years into the future, the god gets increasingly far from "all knowing." Such a god could not predict my death or the deaths of millions of other people.
If a god could see "all possibilities" then this all knowing god could not write down 1000 years ago that LogicFTW will die in 1000 years on the 4th round of russian roulette. Because god would not know which possibility was taken for sure 100% accuracy, a god would be blinded to predict the future accurately by my free will choices, my very ability to choose. Again a gap in "gods" knowledge of knowing everything. An all knowing god would lose the ability to predict the future therefore making it no longer all knowing.
So again; when describing a god concept, you cannot have it both ways. It cannot be all knowing and for us humans to still have free will.
If we do not have free will, then whether we believe in god or not, or worship the right one, or do the right things, was all predetermined, there is nothing we can do about it. We can make no choices to put ourselves on the path of god as many religions like to put it.
If god is not all knowing, then such a god is not as nearly as powerful as we think. We could trick such a god, we could even defeat such a god, it may be exceedingly difficult to bring down such a mighty and knowledgeable being, but it could happen because the god does not know everything. Just like how ants can kill a human being given the right circumstances. Even though our power, our intellect, our ability to work together and aid each other far far exceeds an ant, in many ways we are like god's to the ants.
Of course my personal highly logical conclusion easily concludes there is no god, so I get to skip over this problem entirely, I do not think there is some sort of entity out there that "knows" everything. But do we have free will? I don't know on that, it may be impossible to know for sure.
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▮Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
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Agree to disagree because I believe I can (God can to be more accurate). I think at this point we have both stated our cases, where we stand and how we have reached that position/conclusion and still, do not see eye to eye, which is perfectly fine. As an Atheist you have your beliefs (you know what I mean) and as a Muslim I have mine, maybe we are both so firm in to our position that might possibly be both suffering from (As Nyar said) “Crimestop” lol. Either way this was definitely an interesting conversation. While I thank you for the time you put in to you replies, I want to actually thank you even more for giving me an peek in to how you think and how you reach your conclusions and beliefs (in the non-theological sense). While we most likely will ultimately disagree on most things when it comes to theology, it’s always great understanding how a person/people think.
Yep, I read a while back if after the 3rd time someone does not understand something, the 4th, 5th, 6th will very likely be no more effective. So I wont try to state my case anymore.
I still learned plenty from your responses. And begin to understand how you reach your own conclusions and why.
My response to you pretty closely echos your own to me. So we agree on that, hah!
In the end whether you or I believe free will plus all knowing is possible together or not does not really matter, it does not really influence anything. They are just thoughts. Was a fun conversation though.
Writing it out on my end also helps me sharpen and collect my own thoughts better. One of the best ways to learn is to attempt to explain to another that does not understand or maybe thinks differently with different conclusions.
If you want I can still answer the questions you posted in your previous post here.
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It is disturbing that you don't understand the argument. I'm not surprised you don't agree with it, but you don't seem capable of understanding this rather simple argument. Sounds like your religious beliefs are making you crimestop:
@Nyarlathotep
Crimestop, another word added to my growing vocabulary. Thanks for taking the time to define that one Nyarlathotep.
I'm not sure if I explained myself. The "You" making the decision is really just molecules/atoms that you have no control over. The choice is not yours and never has been. Your condition upon reading this message fully determines your response. There really is no "You" you are an individual set of atoms and if I created an EXACT copy of you and put it in the EXACT circumstance, it would always respond the EXACT same way.
That is what I meant, that their is no part of "you" outside of the physical reality. Your illusion of decision is a biological process, but your biology ever atom of it is only reacting to the laws of phsyics.
@Christian Engineer
I think you are way overthinking this and making this harder than it needs to be. Just for sake of argument how about you first create “an EXACT copy of” me and then let’s talk further. I honestly don’t like dealing with way too many hypothetical and philosophical questions/views as I don’t think they accurately represent the real world in all of its simplicities and complexities. Oh and I also do not share your view point of “The "You" making the decision is really just molecules/atoms that you have no control over”. I do not have control over how they function and whatever else they do but, I do have control over myself as a living, breathing human being.
"Your illusion of decision is a biological process, but your biology ever atom of it is only reacting to the laws of phsyics."
Interestingly that is the same position that biologist Jerry Coyne ('Why Evolution is True') posits. There are frequent active discussions on his website about that.
I'm unconvinced, although there is really no way to actually test for free will. However, the purely deterministic model currently views the brain as simply a computer, and though not normally stated as such, basically a Turing machine in behavior. That is far from a sufficient understanding to determine if it's real or an illusion. There is no computational model for consciousness, we really still have no clue how to create such a thing. If it weren't for the fact that we experience it, there is no way it could even be considered possible. (destroying a massive AI computer would be property destruction, but not murder--murder requires a sentient victim) Yet, the concept of 'free will' and consciousness are so tightly intertwined that we simply don't (yet?) have the tools to tease out the answer.
[Penrose has suggested a quantum component, while we have no understanding of how that would work, it could explain how the brain can step outside of purely algorithmic limitations]
It is estimated that the there are between 10 to the 78 to 10 to the 82 atoms in the known, observable universe. One-hundred thousand quadrillion vigintillion atoms is a heck of a lot. According to this proposition, every atom's fate was pre-determined. Every vibration, collision, and particle release followed such strict movement that not one of them acted not to plan?
Ohh, plan ... the old designer proposition.
Sorry, I happen to believe that "random" is an operative word, that the universe was not designed.
Yet free will won't let you tell us if you think it is ever moral for a 50+ year old man to rape a nine year old child?
Why is that?
Without free will there can be no sin. Every wrong thing we do is simply part of an endless causal chain, so god has no right to judge and condemn us, except that god is also driven by its own deterministic causal chain to act like a cruel, judgmental swine. Ironically dismal, isn't it?
We feel like we have free will. I can choose to drink gin or whiskey, but I hate gin and prefer whiskey. But what makes me prefer whiskey? Where do preferences come from? I love bacon, but I avoid it because I don't want to have another triple by-pass. Yet the desire for bacon comes into my mind unbidden.
Events appear to happen randomly and without cause on the quantum level, which is the foundation of our reality. So perhaps our free will is rooted in quantum processes. But can something based on randomness be called free will?
I don't know the answer to these questions, but I live my life on the basis that I have free will, and that I am responsible for the choices I make.
One thing I do know is that religion has no answer to this (or any other question). Religion is simply a way of avoiding the hard questions.
One more thing. Don't think about elephants.
The problem I have with free will with respect to theism, is that it's contradictory to other notions of theists. The theme that "everything happens for a reason" or "it's gods plan" directly contradicts the idea of free will. The idea that a being that we can't perceive empirically, is in control of our fate is a curious one. The truth is, we can't really have freedom of will if our actions have been pre-ordained.
We'd might as well be videogame characters.
In classical mechanics that is true, but the world is not classical.
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Again, that would be true in a classical system; we don't live in a classical system.
I've never really given it much thought, and if push comes to shove I'd say my life won't change either way.
If free will doesn't exist, then my life is already mapped out for me.
If free will does exist, then I've been exercising it all along anyway.
First, you MUST prove that your deity even exists. Else all else is moot.
Prove to me that I do not have free will to believe whatsoever I wish to believe.
rmfr
@arakish
Prove to me what you had for lunch last Tuesday.
@ Empedocles: "Prove to me what you had for lunch last Tuesday."
Non sequitur.
rmfr
@treeman,
Rent free, brother. Rent free.
For those wondering what i am talking about i have constantly said that "Theists are living rent free in the minds of some atheists and ALL anti-theists(like treeman)". The OP asked "Do you believe in free will? Why or why not?" and you immediately jump to diety and god. The question and answer do NOT even require god for an answer especially from an anit theists such as the treeman.
@treeman,
Why can you type a single sentence, take a single breath or answer such a simple question without injecting a diety? Are you not able to think without talking about god? are you so blinded your hate that all you ever see and think about is god? Kind of an ironic thing for an atheist and self proclaimed anti theist to do. Even I ask a theist was able to answer that question without even referring to God (and i pray 5 times a day). I specifically said "Personally, I do not think you MUST believe in god to “believe” or accept free will".
Another great example of some Atheists not being able to think without injecting or trying to veer towards God is Hitch. Had Hitch been reading my answer carefully and not worried about god and only concerned himself with the question he would have not started talking about "all powerful" and "all knowing". Why can't some Atheists simply answer a simply question without trying to inject God or somehow cause confusion. The question from OP cant be simpler "Do you believe in free will? Why or why not?" Its a yes or no answer followed by a short or drawn out answer. God is not needed for this answer especially if you are an atheist or anti-theist
@Searching for truth
Because this topic which is now covering free will and a designed universe, is solely a product of theists who state that a god runs the entire show. No one but theists have invented this crazy story.
@David
The OP’s question is “Do you believe in free will?why or why not?” Where is the discussion of a designer hinted or implicated in that very simple and easy to read and understand question? This is an example of how some atheists MUST inject that which they reject in to every single thing they talk about. Rent free. Rent free.
Because with one-hundred thousand quadrillion vigintillion atoms there should be chance random events. And since a theist proposed that everything is pre-determined, and thus no random events, that hits the designer proposition dead center.
If a "god" set in motion a sequence of events where there can never be any random events, then the entire scenario is pre-planned, it is designed.
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