Do Nonhuman Animals Have Souls?

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chimp3's picture
Do Nonhuman Animals Have Souls?

Theists: Do chimps, whales, dogs have souls and live in the afterlife?

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Grinseed's picture
Awfully quiet in here Chimp,

Awfully quiet in here Chimp, let me help you out.
Bugger the theists, I went straight to the source.
My dog said he was full of soul and playfulness.
My cat said she didn't need a soul as she is deity anyway.
My goldfish said they thought they were already living in the afterlife. I think they are kind of pissed right now.
Hope that helps.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Chimp

@ Chimp

Theists run a mile at this sort of question it sets up all sorts of inner conflict that they just do not want to face. Cognitive dissonance at its very finest. They, in the main, respond by not responding, metaphorically curled on the floor sucking their thumbs.

The occasional psycho tells the truth that according to their own theology (in the abrahamic religions) no, animals cannot have souls or carry the sin of "adam" .

So few say that because many will look in the eyes of their dog/cat/parrot/ferret/cow/donkey /horse etc and see the life force (they call soul) staring right back at them, mirroring their own.

Just another conflict theists have to face every day.

Sky Pilot's picture
The biblical fairy tale says

The biblical fairy tale says that dogs don't get into the golden cube. There are no seas on the waterless planet so there are no fish there there.

David Killens's picture
I have had dogs all my life.

I have had dogs all my life. Molly, my pug, used to be jealous (is that trait reserved just for humans?) and if I was paying any attention to my other pug Cuddles, she would go to the toy box and pull out a squeaky toy, and start biting down on it, thus attracting the attention of Cuddles, who could not resist a squeaky toy. Cuddles would jump down, and go after the squeaky, leaving Molly to drop the toy and jump up on my lap.

Let us break this down. A dog is capable of jealousy. A dog can take action on that jealousy. A dog can plan ahead (knowledge of time), knowing that a certain action would result in another specific action, leading to a desired result.

This little parable is to lead into the question, that what traits do humans have that are exclusive, and no other animal possesses?

It has been proven in controlled scientific experiments that dogs can have a sense of fair play. Wait, doesn't that fall under the umbrella of morals? Non-human animals can have morals, egos, compassion, loyalty, make tools, have enough intelligence to plan ahead.

And now I get to the sad part of this story, but a necessary action. Cuddles kidney's were failing, and in last June she reached the point where her quality of life went into the very negative zone, and we had to do the only humane thing, to put her out of her misery. For the next few weeks Molly enjoyed all the attention, but she started to change, to search around, to mope, her behaviors were changing. And sadly, almost exactly one month later she went into seizures, and she went the way of Cuddles. They had been life-long companions, all their lives they had each other.

So exactly what general qualities do humans posses that no non-humans lack?

Nothing, absolutely nothing.

Look into a dog's eyes, they look right back.

Cognostic's picture
According to the Bible: They

According to the Bible: They Do.

Ecclesiastes 3:19 ESV / 34 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 ESV / 33 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Genesis 1:30 ESV / 30 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so.
(Breath of life = soul)

Psalm 74:19 ESV / 22 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Do not deliver the soul of your dove to the wild beasts; do not forget the life of your poor forever.

Genesis 2:7 ESV / 26 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

Ecclesiastes 3:19 ESV / 12 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity.

Genesis 7:15 ESV / 11 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
They went into the ark with Noah, two and two of all flesh in which there was the breath of life.

Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 ESV / 8 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?

Psalm 150:6 ESV / 8 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful
Let everything that has breath praise the Lord! Praise the Lord!

This goes on and on and on......

Armando Perez's picture
Then animals will go to

Then animals will go to heaven? Or they are also sinners?

Sushisnake's picture
You frightened me, Chimp. I

You frightened me, Chimp. I've been away and I come back and Chimp - of all people- is asking about souls. :-o
Made me shudder, it did.

chimp3's picture
I was wondering what

I was wondering what believers thought was so special about themselves.

Sushisnake's picture
I wonder about that, too. I

I wonder about that, too. I wonder why they WANT to be separate and apart from all the rest of nature. I love that I'm kin to everything and everything's kin to me. It pleases and comforts me.

Cognostic's picture
@aperez241 YES

@aperez241 YES

The Old Testament applies certain Hebrew terms in the same way for animals and humans. For example, the phrase nephesh chayah (literally, “living soul”) refers both to humans beings (Gn 2:7) and to animals (Gn 1:30).

Ruach, the Hebrew term for “spirit” (and also for “breath,” as the indicator of life), is also applied to both humans and animals in Ecclesiastes 3:21.

It's those amoral modern Christians that follow the teachings of St. Thomas who was among the first to deny animals admittance into heaven.

Randy the Atheist's picture
meh.....why the prejudice?

meh.....why the prejudice? I can understand dogs, cats and fluffy white bunnies.

But what about the rattlesnake? Or the skunk? Florida crocodiles? Great white sharks... cane spiders!

Or how about the malaria mosquito that managed to kill 147 newborn infants today?

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Grinseed's picture
Sick monkey that I am, I love

Sick monkey that I am, I love spiders. Particularly Funnel-Web Spiders and Redbacks. I have kept huntsmen broods in glass tanks. There is no mother like a huntsman mother. I have appalled most of my girlfriends by not being a hero and splatting the 'horrible hairy monsters" that wandered into their houses, catching them instead and releasing them outside. Incredible creatures, unfairly maligned, sadly underappreciated. I blame pesticide companies, for them spiders are, after all, the competition. They have life but even spiders lack souls.

LogicFTW's picture
@orignal post.

@orignal post.

Animals do not have souls, humans do not either. All the evidence points that way.

That said, I agree Grinseed, spiders are very maligned. I watched arachnophobia way to young and was terrified of them for much of my childhood. Fortunately I was able to educate myself in spiders and now I consider spiders my ally in health.

Spiders very rarely sicken or kill humans, but all the insects like mosquitoes they do catch and kill very effectively do sicken and kill many humans. I do check spiders I find in my home if they are black widows if I find them in my house and look similar, but most of the time I just move them to a corner of my house that I rarely frequent, like a basement or any other area bugs can get in. And hope they make a web and kill and eat other insects that find a way in. I did find a black widow female once in my garage, under some wood, and I just let it be. I just made sure to remove any wood they like to hide under, and carefully sealed entry points into my house where the garage is. (As much as I consider spiders my ally, I do not want 1000 blackwidow babies running around my house.)

Additionally the other spiders, that are non poisonous will drive out the poisonous spiders. Possibly prevent termite infestations, moth infestations and so on. Spiders are indeed our helpful allies.

I still freak out if a larger spider lands on me tho. ;)

Sushisnake's picture
Spiders have too many legs,

Spiders have too many legs, Logic. If spiders had two legs, or four legs or even just six legs, people would be less afraid of them, I 'm sure. A spider could be a metre across the abdomen, and if all it had was two legs at the front to slowly drag itself forward, no one would be scared of it. It couldn't fit through the window or door, and everyone would just go inside and calmly wait for it to leave. I'm certain of this.

Like you, I had to educate myself out of my arachnophobia. I used to reach for the fly spray as soon as I saw a spider. Now, small spiders are allowed to remain in the house ( depending on the spider species: we have red backs and funnel webs here), but big spiders are removed because the thought of those legs on me just freaks me out. And those red eyes: huntsman spiders stare at you. They do it on purpose, I swear.

Neighbours know when I've removed a big spider from the house and taken it safely outside, because they can hear me crowing about how brave I am up and down the block :-) They never hear a peep out of me when I remove a snake because I've never been afraid of snakes, but they all are, so the less said about snakes in the house, the better, I find..

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Sushi

@ Sushi
That is why I didn't settle in Sydney...Funnel Webs...but then I was working in NW WA and bugger me first spider in my truck/sleeper was a fekking huge brown bastard with fangs like daggers...which I found out is deadlier than the funnel web ( and a relative) just not so famous as it lives in remote areas. THEN I got settled on while eating my lunch some months later ( I sprayed it far and wide) by a "bird eating" bastard that joined me, on my lower leg in the Kakadu..fekking thing, I must have built my camp over the burrow...frightened me shitless. I could have been an Olympian Medallist the distance I covered from a sitting leap...never mind the brown stains stretching for the entire distance.
Don't get me started on snakes...

LogicFTW's picture
Hah, I got a good laugh from

Hah, I got a good laugh from that story. I should not laugh at your misfortune here, but, yeah, still laughing. Maybe I pictured you running away on a tricycle with a helmet like your avatar depicts.

But yeah australian spiders, yikes, I am very happy that blackwidow's are the only spider I have to worry about around here.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@LtW

@LtW

Oh we have them as well, call the little bastards redbacks. Also black window spiders which bite. Fortunately I have made my tiny back yard a haven for wasps and hornets that just pick up the unwelcome bitches, paralyses them and either buries or incarcerates them in clay prisons as lunch for their larvae...I like wasps and hornets...but not the european variety.
We have one species here black and orange yellow, about 1 1/2 inches long. Just ignores me completely and gets on with killing things. I love her.

Grinseed's picture
Of course what you really

Of course what you really need Sushi is recurring visits from nesting native Potter Wasps...not the bloody European paper wasps who are spawn from hell.

I like these wasps infinitely better than I like spiders. They are intelligent and non-aggressive and they keep spider numbers down to amost zero after a few years.
I lived in Maleny, in Queensland, long regarded as funnel web central of the north and never saw a single funnie around my property, while I had my lovely female wasps stealing clay from my pottery studio...usually from on my arms and clothes too...such gentle intimate little brightly coloured insects (the colours you usually see on heavy industrial machinery warning you to stay clear). They would hover in front of my face while I worked, showing off the spiders they had caught before consigning them to the "nursery".

They'd make their nest pots from my stoneware clay, which they favoured over the traditional local red clay. When their babies had hatched and flown off I would fire the pots in my kiln and flog them off to orchid fanciers as orchid starters.

The wasps wont help you much with snakes though as I found out.

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Sushisnake's picture
Snakes don't worry me. We've

Snakes don't worry me. We've only had little ones inside- small enough to be coaxed to slither into a bucket, then I take them outside. They go in willingly, then settle in the bucket, calmly looking around like they know they're safe and just going for a ride. If I had a bigger one inside, I'd call a snake handler rather than try to pick it up and put it in a sack, largely because I don't own a sack, it can be difficult to identify the snake and even the non-venomous ones can give you a nasty nip if they're frightened . Mind you, if I had the opportunity to learn how to pick them up and put them in a sack safely, I'd take it. I like snakes. I think they’re lovely.

One of my most memorable nights on the turps involved a clutch of captive born baby pythons who had to be shifted from one tank to another. Dropped snakes alive, all over the floor- two drunk, giggling women. It was ridiculous.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Grinseed

@ Grinseed
When I moved in here it was a desert, a tiny desert as I live in over 55 villas and have about 15 square metres of garden. After about 10 years of planting and replanting we now have a decent ecosystem with at least 6 species of spider/grub hunting wasps, 3 species of native WA bees, honey bees, very frightened unpleasant spiders,confident friendly spiders, few ants, and great soil and fruit all growing in pots. No expenditure on insect spray since 2014. Grand!

Grinseed's picture
Sounds like you've made your

Sounds like you've made your own little eden there Old Man. Im as jealous as Cain. At the moment all I have is a few pots of cactii and several of jades on the small veranda of our 2nd floor unit. No spiders or snakes or bees or wasps...sigh but I do have the sea a mere walk away...the other month I saw breaching whales just off shore. But I'd swap the broad ocean horizon for your cosy little eden anytime.

Dave Matson's picture
LogicForTW,

LogicForTW,

I do get a little edgy when I see a big spider on the ceiling directly above me as I'm trying to snooze! I keep thinking that those big guys, unlike the little ones, could slip and fall in my face! Besides, they move around quite a lot during their travels. So, they get transported right away.

Once had a Black Widow take up a post right next to the back door. One day it had positioned itself so that I got a nice photo of its red "hour-glass." Eventually it disappeared. Out here we also have Brown Widows which look a lot like Black Widows and also have a nasty bite. Unlike the smooth egg cases produced by Black Widows, Brown Widows create bumpy, almost spiky, ones.

LogicFTW's picture
I never found a brown widow,

I never found a brown widow, but supposedly they exist where black ones do, but they are much harder to identify. I have read that there is always at least 1 spider within 5 feet of you, almost no matter where you are, you just do not know it. For every spider you do see, another 10 remain undetected... Many too small to be easily seen. To me it calms me to realize I have gone 1000's of nights w/o incident with a spider probably sleeping in the same bed as me, (hopefully underneath the bed and not in the covers.)

Grinseed's picture
Imagine how the spider freaks

@ LogicFTW

Imagine how the spider freaks out when it lands on a large mammalian ape! :)

LogicFTW's picture
@Grinseed:

@Grinseed:
I actually try to remind myself of that. Then I ponder if spiders can feel fear. They certainly do not as humans do. Ah the burden of intelligence ;)

Dave Matson's picture
Grinseed,

Grinseed,

One of the easiest ways to transport a big (but not huge!) spider outside is to lightly crumple up a Kleenex so that there are loose spaces in the wad, then quickly swoop down and grab the spider gently so that it is caught lightly in that matrix but not injured. A couple of practice runs, and it works like a charm! Usually they get photographed, before being busted, if I can manage it.

Grinseed's picture
That's good information

That's good information Greensnake.

I usually have small lidded plastic food containers, marked "Don't eat from this. Spider trap."; one in the house and one in the car for dealing with spiders in places they aren't wanted when I'm visiting.
I hate the idea of people mangling spiders out of sheer fear, even in their own homes...I'm the guest from hell... but I might try your tissue trap, I can see how that works.
Usually I tell people "Don't kill that spider! I will be back in a flash" and run out to the car to get my trap...Kleenexes would be so more genteel and spontaneous.

Cognostic's picture
Heaven of course are pet

Heaven of course are pet cemeteries in Georgia, Texas, and Florida.

Azirahael's picture
Before anyone can claim that

Before anyone can claim that any creature has a soul, human or otherwise, you must first demonstrate that souls exist, and that anyone human or animal has one.

This has not been done.

And given that i am an atheist that runs roleplaying games, and writes stories involving magic and afterlives, i have done much thinking on this topic.

Randy the Atheist's picture
The idea of the "immortal

The idea of the "immortal soul" is that the Mind can exist completely intact in the absence of a physical brain. Thinking, remembering, and perceiving will all be completely unaffected by the disintegration of this vital organ. The study of brain trauma however, reveals startling examples that this concept is false.

Prosopagnosia (the inability to recognize faces including your own) is one such example of a mind-brain dependence. Alzheimer's Diesease is another dramatic example of mind-brain dependence. Not only is the brain slowly destroyed neurologically - but the personality contained within is slowly destroyed in corresponding fashion. The creation of multiple personalities in split-brain patients whose brain is severed down the corpus callosum to reduce severe epileptic seizures, is yet another dramatic example. Left brain no longer communicates with right brain and causes the emergence of two independent persons operating in the same body - each unaware that the other exists.

Thus, your mind is not immune to damage and decay. When your physical brain begins to die off, that person known as *you* dies off as well. Your memories, your experiences, your emotions - are directly caused by the dendrites in your head. Destroy some of those dendrites and those memories will be lost forever - never to return. Destroy enough dendrites and you will become imbecillic - unable to recognize family, friends and favorite places. If all of us had "souls", then the only thing that brain damage would do is incapacitate our ability to move the body. Our memories, emotions and experiences should all remain indestructible and able to survive.

This is now known to be false.

Destruction to your brain parts results in the corresponding destruction to the memories and personality it contains. When your physical brain dies, your personhood and everything that makes you *you* - dies with it.

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