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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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Is it any wonder that Christians seem to stay off these forums???
The only “proof” that can be offered is documentation. This is the same proof that one would use to prove Aristotle or Plato existed. I presume you believe they existed. Dr. Gary Habermas does a good job explaining this concept. I can send you a link if you like? I also suggest you have an open mind when watching the video...if not it is a waste of your time.
@mailman
Big, BIG BIG!! difference between proving adam and eve versus proving Aristotle or Plato. One is a claim that they were created by almighty being that made adam from clay (usually, depending on version) and Eve from a rib of Adam.
I cannot prove you have grandparents mailman, but it is not a large claim to say you have grandparents.
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▮ I am an atheist that always likes a good debate. ▮
▮ Please include @LogicFTW in responses directed to me. ▮
▮ Useful list on forum usage. A.R. Member since 2016. ▮
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@LogicFTW
You make some good points here and it appears you have read the Bible. You sort of get at why it is so hard to "prove" anything. I even saw a comment on this forum saying "prove the voice inside your head is really you." Where does one go with that? If you can't prove it...which one one can...where does one even start to have a logical debate?
Instead of using the word "prove", it seems having an understanding of "most reasonable to believe" might be better.
I can't prove to you that God created Adam and Eve. I can't prove that God exists. (I actually believe that no one can prove God exists to someone else...He doesn't work like that.) Just like you can't prove to me that Pluto exists. You might show me pictures and articles saying a specific rock is Pluto, but it really isn't proof in the same sense that you want proof of God.
However, I believe we can both agree that each of us would believe "what is most reasonable". If so, then we have a discussion. Does that make sense?
@mailman
"Just like you can't prove to me that Pluto exists. You might show me pictures and articles saying a specific rock is Pluto, but it really isn't proof in the same sense that you want proof of God."
One of them is real, can be photographed, it's mass measured via it's influence on other planets, many other sources of empirical evidence. The other, this "god" thingy, is 100% fictitious, a product of imagination.
mailman,
"Is it any wonder that Christians seem to stay off these forums???"
Speaking of Adam & Eve, who else lived in the Garden of Eden and where is it?
The Mormons lived in the garden of Eden and it is in Missouri.
Missouri is more like the lake of fire than the Garden of Eden. Maybe the Mormons got it at a huge discount.
It does not matter if Aristotle or Plato existed. We are not bowing down to worship them and they are not promising us everlasting life or eternal torture should we fail to worship them. Yhey do not make supernatural claims. Really insane claims require really insane evidence to back up those claims. Why would I believe Plato Existed? There is no evidence for that other than talking about him. He could be as made up as Shirlock Holmes or Robin Hood.
If you want to argue for a flesh and blood Jesus with no miracles and someone who is just an itinerant teacher with no magical powers and no significance who is probably a compendium of several itinerant teaches of the day, I will give you that one, Like Plato, that one does not matter at all.
Ask your typical abrahamic based religious apologist if adam and eve were the "first" and they will say "yeah."
Then ask them their thoughts on: generations of intense incest and you will be met with disgust.
Once these apologist realize the problem, then they try to clarify there was "others" and it was not all multi generational incest. So which is it? Can not have it both ways, either Adam and Eve were the first, or they were not.
I have seen stuff about well: "back then incest was okay because adam and even and kids were near perfect! And you did not have multi generational "genetic defects" from adam and eve. Which leads to the next problem with this whole ridiculous idea:
No birth control, long lives, not very many kids... how did that happen? Naturally the written works tries to get vague real fast and name only the first few born then say "others." Even if eve was like a normal aged person today, and she did not die giving childbirth, you would think she would of birthed at minimum 20+ kids unless adam and eve defied "god's" orders to multiply and practiced abstinence at times.
Not to mention the whole "eve made from a rib of adam" That is a whole new level of incest there.
Usually around here, if the apologist did not avoid the subject entirely, they start talking about well: "genesis is not meant to be taken literally."
... Oh really? That part is kind of integral to the whole story of god and creation, nothing after it makes sense if you say the first part is fiction. (Not that it would anyways!)
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▮ I am an atheist that always likes a good debate. ▮
▮ Please include @LogicFTW in responses directed to me. ▮
▮ Useful list on forum usage. A.R. Member since 2016. ▮
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There is a lot here. I will do my best to answer. I need to first state that I do not have all the answers. There are many situations in the Bible I do not understand. Also, I am not a OT scholar, but I am very interested in having my faith challenged so that it may be strengthened. At times I am going to cite other (better) sources since it is in both of our interest to have the best information from those who are more studied on certain topics.
You are right! You cannot have to both ways. Either Adam and Eve were real, or they were not. One must chose.
Regarding incest, here is the best explanation I can offer: https://www.gotquestions.org/incest-in-the-Bible.html
I don't know where "not very many kids" comes from. The Bible states that Adam had other sons and daughters (Gen 5:4). It is reasonable to believe that without birth control, there were many, many offspring.
Your comment about Eve being formed from a rib is incest, is puzzling. Can you explain?
I don't see the bible as "trying" to get vauge. It just doesn't go into a lot of details. I wish it were more detailed...believe me. Remember that putting things down in written form back then was a huge task. Once couldn't just go to a local store to pick up a ream of paper... That being said, when the bible does give details, those details prove to be very helpful in understanding the context of the text.
Mailman, do you think the bible is a more reliable source upon which to hang trust as proof for the existence of Adam and Eve than, say Beowulf is to hang trust for proof the existence of Grendel? If so, why?
CyberLN - I think you know the answer to that one if you have read my previous posts.
Well, that’s a new and interesting evasion technique.
CyberLN - It is not an evasion technique. My answer is Yes.
Yes? Why do you think that?
Because the Bible offers answers found nowhere else in literature. It answers the 4 fundamental questions asked by most humans at some point in their life. They are the following:
Origin - Where did we come from?
Meaning - Why are we here?
Morality - How are we to live?
Destiny - Where are we going?
The answers to these question are found in the bible. Sometimes we do have to dig for the answers, but we can find them (but only with a soft heart). Only a divine being can help us make sense of our messy lives here on earth.
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Damn. I am going to start wearing Depends when reading some of these posts.
rmfr
Re: "Because the Bible offers answers found nowhere else in literature."
.... *wiping tears of laughter from eyes*.... *deeeeeep breath*.... Okay, okay... *schnortal*.... Fact is, I really want to post.... *chortle-snort*... a few responses to the posts of our dear Mr. Mailman... *wiping nose with hanky*... *snicker*.... But I simply.... cannot... stop laughting.... *deep breath*.... long-enough-to-do-it.... Bwaaaa-haaa-haaa....!
Okay, I'm a fucking retard. I'll be your straight man.
1. Where did we come from and of course, what evidence do you have for your claim?
2. Why do you assume you are here for anything? Why would you believe, whatever you believe, is the reason you are here?
3. What is your version of "How we should live." "What makes you think other ways are not also totally legitimate?
4. I was going to bed before I started responding to this garbage. Where are you going and can you prove it?
Please prove that "Only a divine being can help us make sense of our messy lives here on earth." I have done well without one and my life is pretty great.
Oh, mailman...
You wrote: “Because the Bible offers answers found nowhere else in literature.”
That’s quite a reach. Can you demonstrate that no other book offers answers?
“It answers the 4 fundamental questions asked by most humans at some point in their life.”
What leads you to believe that these are ‘THE four fundamental questions’ or that most people ask them?
“Origin - Where did we come from?”
My mommy’s tummy.
“Meaning - Why are we here?”
I’ve never asked this.
“Morality - How are we to live?”
Fully
“Destiny - Where are we going?”
I’m going upstairs to my studio to Do some work. Don’t know where you’re going.
“The answers to these question are found in the bible.”
I really, really did not find those answers in that book.
“ Sometimes we do have to dig for the answers, but we can find them (but only with a soft heart).”
My heart pumps blood. It is not an echo-location device, nor is it particularly soft.
“Only a divine being can help us make sense of our messy lives here on earth.”
Why on earth do you think life needs to ‘make sense’? Why do you suggest that all lives are ‘messy’?
Okay-okay-okay.... *deeeeep breath*.... I'm gonna give this a shot. I'm gonna try responding to a post from Mailman without losing my shit and having to call the medics from laughing too hard. Wish me luck, everybody!.... *mumbling to self*..(moments like these I wish I had an oxygen tank handy.)....
@Mailman Re: THE 4 Fundamental Questions.... *cue dramatic music clip*....
*snicker-snortle*.... Oops. Sorry, y'all....
ONE! Where did we come from? Uhhhhh.... We came from Mars. (It must be true. I read it in a book somewhere.)
TWO! Why are we here? Um, beeeee-caaaause we're NOT on Mars anymore? (Funny, but I figured that would have been self-evident... *shrugging shoulders*..)
*snicker-chuckle-giggle*... *closing eyes really hard and concentrating*.... *mumbling to self through clenched teeth*.. (keep it together, dude. keep it together.)
THREE! How are we to live?... *corner of eye twitching*... *face turning red*... *deeeeep breath*.... Live like you are on a roller coaster without a harness or any other safety devices. Hold on tight and enjoy the fucking ride!
FOUR! Bwaa-ha-... *hand over mouth real quick*... Where are we going? Well, I don't know about you, but I'm going to Pismo Beach. I simply MUST remember to make that left turn at Albuquerque, though.
Okay.... *snicker-schnortal*.... Gotta go.... Bwaaa-haaa!.... Can't... hold... out.... any...... *runs quickly from room*...
I missed this first time. We now know "mailman ain't going to be convinced. I'd give him two to four days before he leaves because he is offended by how easily we trash anything he can throw at us.
And the second emphasis, better, Better?, are you kidding. There is no such thing as better sources when it comes to religious apologia. You are definitely barking up the wrong tree.
About this article. What a load of bullshit. Hey, Old Man, need my hip waders back. It's getting deep in here.
Incest is incest regardless of whether your Sky Faerie "commanded against it, it was not incest." That is nothing more than huge load of horse hoowhee. It matters not when your Sky Faerie commanded against it or not. Incest is incest. Period.
And want to see another huge load of horse hoowhee? "...the human genetic code was relatively free of defects." Genetic code CANNOT ever be free of defects. Science proves it. Your relying on Handwavium Apologetics ain't going to work. Especially since there are NO Religious Absolutists who can even begin to understands just the elementary knowledge of genetics.
Ever heard of cloning? Making Even from a rib of Adam is nothing more cloning Adam. Ultimate case of incest.
Only in proving how contradictive, inconsistent, and wrong it is. NOTHING in the Bible has ever been proven to be true. NOT ONE THING.
rmfr
LogicFTW,
"Then ask them their thoughts on: generations of intense incest and you will be met with disgust."
The Bible is loaded with stories of incest. It really should be rated XXXXXXX. The crazy old coot Abraham spent decades screwing his sister and finally knocked her up. Lot knocked up his daughters. David's son raped his sister. The only people those characters wanted to have sex with were their relatives. They really got ticked off when Esau refused to do it and married some strangers. Yahweh is still pissed about that.
@LogicFTW
"Usually around here, if the apologist did not avoid the subject entirely, they start talking about well: "genesis is not meant to be taken literally.""
Which put such stories into the classification of a "pious fiction", or "political lie". And when one begins to start examining all the many different stories, all of a sudden we discover many of these lies. The Star of Bethlehem and Virgin Birth run counter to common sense.
In summation, IMO the bible is a work of fiction/inspiration/rules set in a historical backdrop but littered with lies, urban legends, and inspirational or fearmongering stories.
David Killens,
"In summation, IMO the bible is a work of fiction/inspiration/rules set in a historical backdrop but littered with lies, urban legends, and inspirational or fearmongering stories."
You nailed it. Of course the Bible is a work of fiction. Who but a crazy person would think that there was a stenographer in every scene recording the dialogue?
The Bible was written in the late 7th Century as a response to Uthman's Koran. When the three master copies were presented in the early 690s they had to have been impressive as hell. They were beautifully illustrated in color and weighed 75 pounds each. That was enough for instant credibility. But the writers loaded it with clues that it was just an elaborate hoke. Since no one knew any better it was accepted as being true. And it did jive with the traditional stories overall. The committee really did a great job writing it, having it flow pretty much seamless from start to finish. It is the gold standard for religious fairy tales.
And I learn a little more each day.
@ David
Sadly Diotrephes has yet to supply any evidence at all for this alleged English committee apart from his own words. Although I respect Dio's knowledge of the bible and its more esoteric passages...on this one assertion he is "awa' with the faeries".
(edited for clarity)
And I learn a little more each day.
And you sounded like such a reasonable person. If I told you the story of the big bad wolf was historical because of the writing style; what would that tell you about me?
The context of this questions was "Are Adam and Eve Symbolic?". My answer was no, and many others who study Genesis say the same thing. I have not read many, if any, arguments as to how the Genesis story would be symbolic. The style of writing is historical, even though many people do not believe the account. That was the context of the thread of this discussion. Or did I misunderstand??
Regarding the story of the big bad wolf, one could argue it is historical. But that would go against all known historical and current interpretations of this story. Do you believe the big bad wolf story to be historical? (I prefer not to comment on your character based on a hypothetical.)
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