show it to your Christian friends sometimes
Cheers :)
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I thought you were a Christian VPT?
This comes up pretty much whenever a christian comes here making the moral argument, so, it isn't exactly new.
I've just read that passage and it refers to servants. Is there a consensus that servant = slave?
The Jewish covenant of servitude of gentiles included:
1. The ability to beat a "servant" as long as they didn't die in a couple of days from it.
2. The ability to basically breed your "servants" and the children are your property.
3. The ability to pass down your "servants" as property or give them away/sell them.
Somehow I don't think these things applies to butlers and maids in modern western civilization, but I could be wrong...
It means slave, just apologetics want it as badly to make it servant.
Don't bother reasoning with them on that aspect, you will go nowhere.
Any sane person knows Jesus promoted slavery and instructs you to give the other cheek.
The entire Jesus philosophy is based on you becoming a slave physically and mentally.
Only faith can blind you from this fact.
Edit:
Triple post bug?
Edit:
Triple post bug?
I agree with you 3 times.
There seems to be so much wriggle-room in the bible, especially with regard to the old testament. Every time I have a prawn cocktail I think of Leviticus, yet they use the same book to persecute gay people.
Due to the inordinate amount of translations of the bible, how can you conclude an objective or precise interpretation of Luke 17?
I think this says it all about slaves:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl2.htm
"Ephesians 6:5-9
Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free."
Very rare to find a Jew writing something about Christianity considering the amount of persecution they had from it in history.
I hate to be a bit difficult here, but if that's in the bible it must have been written by 100 AD, so there wasn't much time by then for the christians to persecute the jews.
Of course, it was different later. Not to mention the muslims and the nazis and probably several other groups.
The jews were persecuted almost as much as the gay people which they, in turn, persecute.
"I hate to be a bit difficult here"
No no, that is constructive criticism, which is really wonderful.
"but if that's in the bible it must have been written by 100 AD"
Yes so?
Bible NT was written approx 80-140 AD so 100 AD is quite correct.
"so there wasn't much time by then for the christians to persecute the jews."
What do you mean much time?
You think Christianity existed before 80 AD?
From 80 AD to 1943 AD is a very long time of persecution my friend.
Muslims and the Nazis came from versions of Christianity, even though they had disagreements along the line, the hate for the Jews did not change but worsened.
If you want a very simple example of Christian persecution, well the crusades apart from killing Muslims killed all the Jews too on their way, just so you know.
This wasn't just some bad mood, the Jews were hated even more then the Muslims by Christians.
Funnily enough it was the Jews that help finance/create Christianity during 80-200 ad, Those Jews that supported the roman empire like the Alexanders which wanted the militaristic Jews to be eradicated.(or messianic/Christians)
From peaceful Jews hating other Jews(Christians) it turned to; everyone else hate all the Jews.(special thanks to the later church)
(Christians were originally the Jewish flowers of a militaristic messiah, later on the peaceful followers of a messiah were also called Christians)
It is confusing I know. History is, there is no strait line, but a web of multiple actions taking different directions.
You missed the point I was making, maybe I didn't explain it properly. It wasn't surprising for a Jew to be sympathetic to Christians in 100 AD because there hadn't been long enough for them to persecute anyone, including the Jews. That was all. Then I made the point that the Jews have been persecuted by many groups, not just Christians. Then I made the point that these persecuted people now persecute other groups like gay people. The implication being that they should stop doing that.
"You missed the point I was making, maybe I didn't explain it properly."
Most probably, I still do not get where you disagree with what I said above.
"It wasn't surprising for a Jew to be sympathetic to Christians in 100 AD because there hadn't been long enough for them to persecute anyone, including the Jews."
Yes as I said, there were pro-roman Jews at the time that funded Christianity too.
My point was, depending which Jews you are talking about, the militaristic christian Jews, the ones who declared war to Rome; those were persecuted by the pro-roman Christians, not because they were Christians but because they were pro-roman.
(the pro-roman pacifistic Christians = Christians of today but weren't called Christians at that time yet)
Christianity had the anti-militaristic, anti-Jewish message but it was too early to have enough fanaticism about it.
The church later in history made sure to excel in that.
Nutmeg, you say Jews persecute gays and other groups? All Jews? What groups?
The fundies, just like they oppress women. Fairly common to the fundie sects of all religions, including the christians. In fact the RCC church too.
I think the brush you are using might be a tad broad. I know some who identify as fundamentalist and I've not seen any behavior from them that I could call persecutory. Others, yes, but not all.
I'm not trying to pick on you, Nutmeg. This has just gotten me thinking. I'm learning that it's important to me, as someone who identifies as atheist, to ensure I behave in a way that doesn't equal the behavior I complain about in some religious people. I dislike being told that all atheists are (fill in the blank). Therefore, I think saying "all (fill in the religion) do/say/think/act (fill in the blank) is inappropriate.
Inasmuch as Muhammed felt that having a crisis of faith, like apostasy, was approachable strictly by execution, no alternative translation allowed. Abrahamic religions condone and mandate MUCH worse than slavery. This is low hanging (forbidden) fruit. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to figure out the fair market price I can get out of my daughter's rapist in silver. Actually, I hear family honor looks better on resumes, so I might just play it safe and behead her. Plus, next tax season's always around the corner, y'know?