I've noticed recently that most Atheists are angry because they think that there is no God and that they have been created without purpose. Some are angry because they have not been contacted by God or visited by God so they refuse to believe. Most atheists also curse other religions Gods. Don't know how is that supposed to make them feel good. Before making a judgement lets consider some possibilities. We will go by what we observe as well what human being or any other living thing is capable of.
Every Human, living and non living things have been created. And We know one thing for sure and that is God is not Human. As human being was created by A power. Now the same power which created Humans I believe have created Animals because both resemble in their features like seeing, hearing, eating and reproduction and also made it . Everything was created such as earth, water, heavens, air,sand,fire and so on. Human didn't create any of these as it hasn't been proved till now. Instead Human being was made up of elements like water and sand as it has been proved. So there was some Power that made the Earth livable as the only planet and sent man to earth. Thus that makes that Power above everything in this world. Also that Power is not like anything in this world Humans would be the first ones to know if That Power was someone or something from this World. So that makes that Power(God) unique and different from everything else(all things made of Fire,Earth,Water and Air). We can also conclude that no human has ever seen that Power but has seen most of the creations of that Power. Now if that Power existed before creation of Mankind it can be said that this Power existed when there was nothing because before the heavens and earth and planets there was merely nothing but that Power was there and there was no time frame.
If we have to summarize everything above in one sentence it will be like.. There is Some Power that is responsible for all of this. It will be too unfair on our part to reject that power totally. Just because for whatever reason we haven't been in direct contact with that power doesn't mean we should reject that Power. But we can't deny the fact that that Power has shown us so many signs and miracles I mean if we see around everything is a miracle. For people who ponder and are serious about creation there are enough signs. Now by definition we usually call that power as "GOD".
Now If I may ask what are the two most important means of learning and teaching that have been used for hundreds and thousands and years. I'll say
1. Books
2. Teachers
1. Now if I may ask do you read books? You might have never met the author yet you read it and it can mean so much to you. Anyhow what I'm trying to say is that there's an author behind every book and that author is at a level where he thinks people can learn from it as well as ponder over it. A book has been the oldest means of information and knowledge passed on to generations. Books are also the most accepted means of passing on information to generations. Books can be read by billions of people at the same time and each can reflect on it. Books have taught men of all times.
2. Teachers well yeah who doesn't know about them? Teachers teach you what not? From childhood to being an adult you learn so much from them. But remember they're not teachers untill they have ample knowledge of the subject of teaching.
All others means of learning and gaining knowledge are based on these two. All knowledge on internet comes mostly from books, articles and websites. But most of that's not authentic. So most accepted and authentic means still are the Books and Certified Teachers.
Now why do you think these two have so much importance and so meaningful to humankind. Do you think it all happened by itself or everything was planned? Who knows Iphone more than Steve Jobs? Who knows more Man more than that Power. And that Power chose the best way available to mankind to teach him how to live and how to fulfill that what that Power has planned for him. Teachers that were chosen and Books that were revealed.
First of all we should consult Books that fulfills the condition that it was revealed none other than that Power. After that instead of arguing with others and judging others we should atleast open the book and read it and reflect and see what it says. Then we can talk to others about it in order to seek knowledge so that we can accept it or reject it and move on to the other one. We can't just live in ignorance and live a meaningless and purposeless life. We must get to know that what that Power has planned for us. There must be a plan. What are we missing?
Its okay to start with the most authentic and most read as well as most reliable books in the world. Then see which Book explains that Power in the best way. I'm talking about the books that are claimed to be by that Power only. Link that book to the most followed religion and see if that fits with the definition of that Power. One thing I must add is that Power is Absolute. That Power is unique. That Power is not owned by any Man. See which Books and which Religion talks the best about that power and also about the messengers or prophets that those books were revealed upon. Which religion and Book gives absolute power to the One and Only Power above all. Which is the book still in its original form and language. Because all you need is One Book. No race no color no discrimination whatsoever.
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You spend a lot of time assuming things, assuming that I reject your reality, assuming that I am angry because god hasn't contacted me, assuming that I think I am some "creation".
What purpose would god have in a book? What reason would god have to hide himself from his own creation? What possible logic would god have for needing to use his creation to show his creation that he created it? The mere concept that you need to tell me about god is evidence that he doesn't exist. If god created me, I would know all about it. Why would god withhold that information? For what purpose? So churches can make money out of telling me all about it? Rubbish.
You talk of a book that says we are stationary in the cosmos, un-moving and constant. If I were to believe your book it would contradict everything that science tells me about the motion of our planet, why everything moves across the sky as one, even though they are immeasurable distances apart from one another. This book is wrong on this and you know it is, but you can ignore that fact simply because you want to believe the fairy-tale, you need that fantasy to make sense of your existence. Who cares if everything that can be tested proves to be wrong, the things that can't be tested could still be right.
I won't argue with that, but I don't need your fairy-tale. Books that contain accurate testable data are of much more interest to me, thanks anyway. What about books on astrology? They are full of star charts and all sorts of data about your future that I'm sure is completely accurate.
@Jamal
"most Atheists are angry because they think that there is no God and that they have been created without purpose."
- In my experience that's a completely incorrect assumption. Can you point out where you are getting such an idea? Honestly, show us.
"Some are angry because they have not been contacted by God or visited by God so they refuse to believe. Most Atheists also curse other religions Gods."
- More of the same, where are you getting this from? Please show us, because I think you are repeating what you have been told by other Theists. I think what angers most Atheists, is when Theists make exactly this kind of patronising assumptions.
"Before making a judgement lets consider some possibilities."
- I have been asking you some simple questions that you have been unable to answer, so you certainly don't seem to consider all possibilities, just the ones you want to.
How about this possibility:
The supernatural claims in the Quran have no truth to them whatsoever. You believe that it is true, merely because you have a need to believe in an afterlife, and to get answers to questions like "how can there be life". You also get a rewarding feeling of belonging to the group of believers.
Again and again, you have been told that it is true, until the indoctrination process eventually smothered your inner core of curiosity. It feels comfortable to be able to fool yourself into thinking that you have the answers to all questions, so you surrender to blind faith.
This is essentially what I think is true, and that is why I have been asking you: What makes you think the Quran is true? What makes it more trustworthy than all other religious scriptures (that also claim to contain their own proof)?
You seem to completely miss that I (as many others) don't believe what the Quran says is the truth, yet you keep quoting from it to "prove" it. This is a pointless exercise.
Unfortunately, it also makes the rest of your "arguments" completely redundant and irrelevant.
But I'll continue on anyway...
"Every Human, living and non living things have been created."
- In my opinion, No. No, no, no.
You use the word "created" as to insinuates a conscious act of creating. How can you assert that as an established truth, when all you have to go on is information from a single unproven and uncorroborated book?
"And We know one thing for sure and that is God is not Human."
- Please, demonstrate HOW you actually know this? You can have faith that it is so, but you assert it is true.
"Now the same power which created Humans I believe have created Animals because both resemble in their features like seeing, hearing, eating and reproduction and also made it."
- Finally, you use the words "I believe", thank you. This is honesty, to tell us that it is your beliefs, not an asserted truth.
"Everything was created such as earth, water, heavens, air,sand,fire and so on. Human didn't create any of these as it hasn't been proved till now. Instead Human being was made up of elements like water and sand as it has been proved."
- Please, point us to the proof that shows that man was "made up of elements like water and sand", please! I would really like to read up on that proof. But you can't, since there is none. Unless you claim that the very same book you are getting all of this from is valid proof?
"So there was some Power that made the Earth livable..."
- Repeating an unproven assertion.
"...as the only planet and sent man to earth."
- As far as we know of yet. We are discovering planets in a faster and faster pace, I would not be surprised if we find an inhabitable planet within the next 30 years.
"Thus that makes that Power above everything in this world."
- Another assumption building on previous, completely unproven assumptions.
"Also that Power is not like anything in this world Humans would be the first ones to know if That Power was someone or something from this World."
- Wait, what? Eh..
"So that makes that Power(God) unique and different..."
- Another unproven assertion.
"...from everything else(all things made of Fire,Earth,Water and Air)."
- Ooookey?! I thought you at least had some basic education. You actually still cling to the era of medieval alchemy?
"We can also conclude that no human has ever seen that Power..."
- Here we actually agree.
"...but has seen most of the creations of that Power. Now if that Power existed before creation of Mankind it can be said that this Power existed when there was nothing because before the heavens and earth and planets there was merely nothing..."
- IF... that power existed before creation of Mankind? Do you mean to say you don't actually know?
"It will be too unfair on our part to reject that power totally. Just because for whatever reason we haven't been in direct contact with that power doesn't mean we should reject that Power."
- You, like many others, seem to have completely missed the point in what an "agnostic Atheist" is!
An "agnostic Atheist", lacks belief in a god because there is nothing to base that belief on.
If any god would prove it's existence to an agnostic Atheist, we would believe, obviously. But as long as the only so called "proof" are uncorroborated ancient books, and people who claim that it is true (because they believe that book), we continue to lack belief.
In other words: We don't reject "that Power" you are talking about, we reject the extremely flimsy and uncorroborated claims that it actually exists.
"But we can't deny the fact that that Power has shown us so many signs and miracles I mean if we see around everything is a miracle."
- This is not a fact, because it is unproven, unproven and unproven. There is a complete lack of proof, so you cannot call it a fact.
"For people who ponder and are serious about creation there are enough signs."
- What signs are these? Can you make a list and then we can debate the specific signs?
"1. Now if I may ask do you read books?"
Certainly, several of them.
"You might have never met the author yet you read it and it can mean so much to you. Anyhow what I'm trying to say is that there's an author behind every book and that author is at a level where he thinks people can learn from it as well as ponder over it."
- This is besides the point.
Anyone can write a book, filled with truth or filled with lies, it could be completely made up and portrayed as such. It could also be a combination of truth of lies (the most effective way spread lies).
The difference is that if a book makes claims, and those claims are not of a supernatural nature and have some corroboration from other sources, and is not in conflict with other information, that book will be believed by rational people.
But, lets say you find a book that claims to be true and describes several fantastic supernatural events. It is well written and you find the entire book beautiful. Would you believe all the supernatural claims in that book, just because you had read the book or would you require corroboration before you start to believe it?
You look for other sources to prove those supernatural events, but all you find is some historically accurate coinciding information, of which nothing pertains the supernatural events. Only names of a few cities, names of a few different tribes/peoples, names of a few individuals.
Would you believe that book holds the truth?
"2. Teachers well yeah who doesn't know about them? Teachers teach you what not? From childhood to being an adult you learn so much from them. But remember they're not teachers untill they have ample knowledge of the subject of teaching."
Correct.
But many teach what they believe is true. Not what has been proven to actually be true. They spread disinformation and ignorance. That is why children must be taught to think for themselves, to think critically.
"All others means of learning and gaining knowledge are based on these two. All knowledge on internet comes mostly from books, articles and websites. But most of that's not authentic. So most accepted and authentic means still are the Books and Certified Teachers."
You say this, then again and again refer to the same unproven and uncorroborated book??! You must know how unreliable the information within it is?!?
"Teachers that were chosen and Books that were revealed."
- Just more unproven claims...
"First of all we should consult Books that fulfills the condition that it was revealed none other than that Power."
- Fullfills the condition?
Again we return to my questions that you won't answer: How do you know which book is the right one? They conflict with each other. How do you even know there is such a Power at all?
"We can't just live in ignorance and live a meaningless and purposeless life."
- From my perspective, this is exactly what you are doing.
You are living you life in accordance with a book you happen to believe. But when the biological machine that you are, shuts down you simply end. So you have lived your entire life to be rewarded in an afterlife that doesn't exist. Utterly meaningless and purposeless.
"We must get to know that what that Power has planned for us. There must be a plan. What are we missing?"
- Please inform me. Why MUST there be a plan?
"Its okay to start with the most authentic and most read as well as most reliable books in the world."
- I don't believe in the Torah, the Bible or the Quran. Give me the reasons, outside of the books themselves, to believe in any one of them.
All the supernatural claims in those books are completely unproven and uncorroborated. If not, please point me to where...
"One thing I must add is that Power is Absolute."
- Say it with me: That is an unproven claim.
"Because all you need is One Book."
- But, since it is completely unproven and uncorroborated, you have limited yourself to finding out anything beyond it. You have locked your life in a quest for rewards in an afterlife that also is completely unproven (and in my opinion, very unlikely). Your life is now, not after you have died!!
"No race no color no discrimination whatsoever."
- That is beautiful to me, and I wish we will see such a day.
But I'm certain that the "holy books" of the Abrahamic faiths in combination with ignorance is the lead cause of discrimination worldwide. Against race, against women, against non-believers, against non-heterosexuals, against handicapped, against people of other religions or other denominations within the same religion.
I say:
Put down that obviously fake book and look around. Your life is here and now, in reality. It's not when you have died, so living for your afterlife is to mindlessly do as you have been told and miss out on actually living your life while you are alive.
I expected a response like this so I'm not Amazed :) And one important thing is that Atheist think that people of religion are missing out on something. We don't. I have seen more TV series, Movies, Traveled, Socialized, Read books on science and business and what not. I have lived life to the fullest. But I'm a better man now after I did what my religion says. I have lived without the book and religion I spent most of my youth without going by the book and I sinned and I was rude to people I didnt care about anything but myself. I hardly talked to my parents and hardly visited sick. I didnt give out to poor. I hardly prayed to God for anything so I was dependent on people. But soon I started following my religion properly by the Book I'm a way better person. I care about Widows, about freeing slaves, about feeding poors, about visiting the sick, depending on no one but one Allah. I know about afterlife. Its really easy to reject it but its a reality as real as this one. If you believe you exist then its much easier to exist the second time. And that too for eternity. Life is no more than a test. But religion says life your life and don't forget manners and being kind to people. Because the best of us is he who is the best with people. Besides being a better person I have also a better life now. Before it was nothing but pointless. And the Book I follow asks nothing of me than to worship one God and be nice to others. That's all. Rest is life. And Im not missing out on anything. Infact im making the most of it.
I thank my Allah for everything I have. May Allah bless us all. Ameen
I don't think you're missing out on anything at all, in fact, people like you receive much more attention than people like me because you are open to irrational, ridiculous ideas. You will meet much more salespersons than I ever will because you are much more likely to believe the nonsense they are spewing and to buy the products they are flogging. You help the economy more than I ever will and should be praised for it. Good job.
@Jamal
You seem like a great person and I commend you for it. But just like Nyarlathotep wrote (below), you are trying to spread your belief, so we are calling you on it. Your long and nice response, did not answer any of my questions.
Why do you fear to answer such questions? They should be really simple for you to reply to?!
The more you keep avoiding such simple questions, the more it makes you seem disingenuous or that you just don't have any idea how you can claim to "know" or why you think the Quran is true.
my new found christianity keeps my darker psychotic tendencies in check. There was this study this article mentioned that said societies where a large proportion of the populace believe in eternal punishment for misdeeds suffer from lower crime rates. I would have to find the study, so don't quote me on it
If you need a fairy tale to make yourself a better person, go for it. But when you try to pass off your fairy tale as real, we are going to call you on the bullshit.
Nyarlathotep, and I thnk you should be welcome to. I think am currently investigating whether belief is a "fairytale"
"God" didn't create me, that was my parents. I also don't think that people who happen to be religious are "missing out" on things any more than they believe that about me or other atheists. As for my purpose in life, who knows? My answer would be "Nobody".
Lets suppose your parents created you. Who created oxygen and water? Can you live without them? Should we not find out about the ONE who made us like this and made everything so we can eat and drink and live.. Should we not thank and ask for more? For whatever is planned out for us? We aren't animals. We have ability to think and reflect. You know there is a power above all responsible for all of this. For creating us the way we are.. Full of Emotions, Feelings, Hunger, Anger, Hate and Love and what not. The least we can do is to believe in that Power and Thank in whatever capacity we can. We can atleast say this once in our life. Just once that:
In the name of God, the infinitely Compassionate and Merciful.
Praise be to God, Lord of all the worlds.
The Compassionate, the Merciful. Ruler on the Day of Reckoning.
You alone do we worship, and You alone do we ask for help.
Guide us on the straight path,
the path of those who have received your grace;
not the path of those who have brought down wrath, nor of those who wander astray.
Just for once in your life thank the One and praise the one who created everything. You know in your heart that everything didnt happen by itself. Breathe in and breathe out and just for once THINK. You have nothing to lose. But so much to gain.
You said, "Just for once in your life thank the One and praise the one who created everything. You know in your heart that everything didnt happen by itself. Breathe in and breathe out and just for once THINK. You have nothing to lose. But so much to gain."
I do not think that there is one to thank so doing so would be a useless exercise.
I know nothing of the sort in my heart, in my liver, in my brain, anywhere.
I breathe in and out all the time.
I think all the time.
I do have something to lose - reason.
I see nothing to gain.
http://ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/muhammed_cartoon_bomb_strik...
Jamal, you can believe any fairy tale you want, I can't and won't stop you. But maybe try not to make things up about atheists, and avoiding questions.
I'm not angry at all your god hasn't contacted me, I'm actually happy. If Allah showed up on my doorstep id admit myself to a psych ward, thank you very much.
Next thing you know Jesus will be trying to sell me girl scout cookies...
"You know in your heart that everything didn't happen by itself" - No but that is why I mentioned my parents. You know the two people who had sex to create me? It has nothing to do with any god or deity for me. You and I both have the freedom to believe (or not believe) anything we like and I respect your right to believe in god, it just so happens that I don't.
"You know there is a power above all responsible for all of this" - No actually I don't. I don't think there is any power responsible for us.