The backfire effect

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Eiho09's picture
The backfire effect

Greetings fellow atheists,
I read something interesting the other day on the backfire effect. I am sure many times you may have try using facts to convince others on your views on religion, politics, best sports team, etc. Don't you find it surprising that the people you try to persuade, ends up holding their original views more strongly than before?
This is a link to the article:
https://www.google.com/amp/bigthink.com/think-tank/the-backfire-effect-w...
What do you guys think about this? I am interested in hearing what others thing on this matter.
In case this has been brought up here at atheist republic, I apologize. I am new here.
Thanks in advance for participating.

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chimp3's picture
The effect may also be ones

The effect may also be ones lack of ability to persuade others.

MCDennis's picture
You can lead a horse to water

You can lead a horse to water and a fool to knowledge, but...

Eiho09's picture
@MCD, @chimp3,

@MCD, @chimp3,
Well according to the study, it is a limitation of the human brain. Someone who knows your position does not see you as an authority in the matter. As a result, when you present them with the facts, they end up believing their own views more strongly. For instance, me telling religious people that their religion is ridiculous because "there is no evidence of god". Since these people know I am an atheist, they are less likely to take me seriously. Therefore, they end up believing in god more strongly than before. This is an oversimplification, but you guys get the point. There are many articles on this issue. Do you guys think its effective to ridicule or present the facts to people who believe to try to convince them of otherwise? Do you guys have an experience where this has happened?

chimp3's picture
Yes! Here on this forum a few

Yes! Here on this forum a few believers have ferociously debated atheists and were won over. They are currently posting as either agnostics or atheists.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Someone who knows your

Someone who knows your position does not see you as an authority in the matter.

Right. Like when someone who has a different opinion than me, decides that any mathematical manipulation I preform is suspect. I encounter this all the time (and not just with theists). Once I had a CEO basically tell me that since he was a successful businessman who had attended an ivy league university that something like 50/0 = 0; and that his spreadsheet (and I) was wrong when we refused to agree with him.

Eiho09's picture
@chimp3

@chimp3
Interesting. I am open to the idea that this form of debate works. I would like to speak to someone who abandoned his or her faith through this forum based on being presented with facts. Do you know of anyone specifically?
Also, has the opposite ever happened to you? Where you presented the facts to someone, and they end up believing their previous views more strongly and never got to convince them?

chimp3's picture
All the time. But I am not

All the time. But I am not skilled in the art of persuasion.

Eiho09's picture
@Nyarlathotep @chimp3

@Nyarlathotep @chimp3
Thanks for your insights.

@John 6IX Breezy
Thank you I will check the podcast. By the way, I have seen you arguing in other posts. Do you happen to be a Christian? If you are, how do you feel when someone ridicules your religious views? If you are not, then sorry for the misunderstanding.

Eiho09's picture
@John 6IX Breezy

@John 6IX Breezy
Interesting. Thanks for responding. I think that it isn't necessary to ridicule others views when discussing these topics. People can still have a normal conversation using logic and reason without recurring to those methods. I feel like it only creates a metal barrier on others, and the conversation doesn't lead anywhere.

Eiho09's picture
@John 6IX Breezy

@John 6IX Breezy
Great, we both agree on agree on this.

Truett's picture
Hi, 0991atheus. Great

Hi, 0991atheus. Great question. It is important to better understand the backfire effect so that we can effectively communicate with each other and ensure our capacity to course-correct when we're mistaken. I've run into profound difficulty with the backfire effect. I have read Michael Shermer's thoughts on this matter, and am glad to read yours and others' comments about it here. I don't know why it occurs, but it clearly does.

If I had to guess, the ability to persuade someone with a strongly held contrary view rests in the ability to appeal to multiple parts of the brain. Our logic and reason do not reign supreme in our minds; deeply held convictions are built on premises that were not necessarily thought through but were rather accepted over time through indoctrination, instinct and assumptions about reality. Our logic and reasoning can be like a person working a math problem with an original, fundamental flaw. We can dedicate ourselves to very exact math as we work on the problem, but if the problem has an original error, all of our exact mathematics will still be incorrect. Our math wasn't the problem, it was the initial mistake that doomed our efforts. The same goes for attempts to understand reality. With something like religion, a person has to be willing to submit even their deepest, most intimately held premises to critical analysis, and that's asking a lot. Pure reason isn't often sufficient. It seems to me that a combination of mental processes is needed.

In my case, the technical awareness of the sciences was not sufficient to move me from theism to atheism. It was the conflict that arose from realizing that an eternal, loving creator would not have used the suffering of billions of intelligent mammal-like species going through the Permian Extinction 251 million years ago to bring me into existense. The harmonics of that cognitive dissonance finally shook something loose inside of my mind and allowed me a moment to assess the whole proposition outside of my religious mindset. A moment outside of my bubble of faith was like a dreamer lifting his head briefly off his pillow. Argument and logic were important, but they were aided by internal processes that weren't purely analytical- they were emotional. The injustice and the lack of compassion of such a plan was offensive, and that gave logic a leverage point within my mind. The thousands of conversations leading up to that point weren't enough; my sense of fairness and compassion had to get involved to allow me past the backfire effect.

On the point about ridicule, I disagree. When I was actively considering my previously held religious position with the Atheist position, I watched Christopher Hitchens debate Theists and mercillously ridicule their beliefs and the resulting effects of religion on their moral choices and views. To accurately describe a vicious, stupid worldview requires telling someone about why their vicious, stupid worldview is wrong. That's going to be hard and pointed, and it will often come across as ridicule. I valued Hitchens' clarity and while other means might be more effective, ridicule has a definite role to play. Richard Dawkins and Lawrence Krauss and the late Christopher Hitchens are not cruel people, but they were willing to say that a person is homophobic or mysoginistic or whatever due to their beliefs. People like Steven Pinker are far more curteous and cautious in their remarks, and there's a role for that, but it lacks the plain spoken quality that Dawkins and company share. To be clear requires that one speak clearly, and that's offensive. Hence the ridicule label.

We who see the devastation wrought by religion are keen to see humanity move past our superstitious traditions and thought processes. I'm actively trying to accomplish that goal. I'm willing to change my argument style if a means to avoiding the backfire effect is identified. That's why I am so interested in your topic. Thanks for the question, 0991atheus.

Eiho09's picture
@Truett

@Truett
I apologize for taking so long to answer. I have been busy lately.
This is a very interesting take on the issue. When I have the chance, I'll try to find scholarly articles on the backfire effect.
I guess being straight forward might help some to a certain extent. Hearing Dawkins and Hitchens take on religion helped me see many things I never thought about before. I grant you that it can have the potential to convince people. I just wonder if treating people's views with respect could lead to a higher degree of persuasion.
I agree with you in the suffering topic. It truly is offensive to think that an all loving god could possibly allow so much pain to exist in the world. Specially when he has the power to stop it in any second. This too, was a big problem for me.

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