Below is my latest article which I have written for my FB page - Atheist Answers. Feel free to check out the link if you are interested.
--> People Who Profess The Belief That God Does Not Exist, Most Likely Believe In God - Despite Their Own Profession <--
https://www.facebook.com/notes/atheist-answers/people-who-profess-the-be...
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...*blank stare*..... *corner of right eye starting to twitch*.....
LOL! Nice one.
I should have written my article with a disclaimer, something like:
DISCLAIMER: Internet atheists may be extremely triggered.
But in all seriousness, why not read the article and give me your thoughts on it :)
For starters: your statements about the validity of arguments (in your link, right before section 1), is a confusing, incorrect mess. When you have that corrected, let us know and I'll read more!
/e
Are you also the previous user named The Interlocutor?
My article is based on a standard evidentialist epistemology in aced mic philosophy - so I do not see your problem, or how you were able to even read it much at all since I only just posted it.
It can be basically summed up as the following:
---FIRSTLY---
Based on the laws of logic - and particularly the logical law of excluded middle - we only have a proposition (P) and its negation/opposite (~p) - no in between. So a proposition is either P or ~P. For example:
P: There is an apple on my desk.
--OR--
~P: There is NO apple on my desk.
--SECONDLY---
For a belief to be rationally justified, some person P must have a REASON which is rationally justified enough in proportion to how strongly a belief is held.
Which part of this do you have a problem with?
You seem to think that atheism requires a belief.
Do you actually believe in Spiderman?
---AGAIN---
Based on the laws of logic - and particularly the logical law of excluded middle - we only have a proposition (P) and its negation/opposite (~p) - no in between. So a proposition is either P or ~P. For example:
P: There is an apple on my desk.
--OR--
~P: There is NO apple on my desk.
So for any proposition P VS ~P, there are these three possibilities concerning ones BELIEF in relation to P VS ~P:
1. A person believes P is true (or more likely true) over ~P.
2. A person neither believes P or ~P as more likely true over its negation/opposite.
3. A person believes ~P is true (or more likely true) over P.
So in terms of these propositions...
P: God exists (Ultimate Reality is Personal in nature).
~P: God does not exist (Ultimate Reality is Impersonal in nature).
... if by atheist you mean position #2 (above), then within this section there is the possible position where the atheist neither holds belief in P or ~P as true or more likely true than its negation.
But atheism definitionally also covers position #3. So it all depends how the term 'atheism' is being used.
Also, in regards to Spiderman, it is a silly point if you are comparing him to God. If you are, the comparison means nothing unless you:
1. Show that there are rationally justified reasons to believe in Spiderman does not exist (which there are, but I am not doing the work for you).
2. Show that these same reasons apply to belief in God (which even if they do [but they don't], then just show the reasons themselves... the comparison is pointless if the reasons are legit).
Other than that, I could just claim believing in God is like believing in the sun. It is just a claim - unless I fulfill the two criteria above it shows nothing.
My article covers this whole issue, why not just read it :)
@The Interlocutor
Again, atheism does not require a belief.
And also, atheists don't believe in god. It would be illogical according to logic to say that a person believes in something when they don't believe in it.
I think you are confusing belief that a concept exists with belief that a concept represents something that actually exists. But again, atheism does not require a belief.
Again, there are two possible propositions:
P: God exists (Ultimate Reality is Personal in nature).
~P: God does not exist (Ultimate Reality is Impersonal in nature).
To believe either proposition as true (P or ~P) or more likely true, is a belief about the nature of reality (or a set of affairs in reality).
If by atheist you mean someone who has never thought of the proposition and therefore neither believes P or ~P is true (or anymore likely true over its negation) - then yes, this type of atheist has no belief regarding the issue.
However, the term 'atheism' actually covers someone who believe ~P is true or more likely true than P - this type of atheist has a belief.
The Merriam Webster dictionary states that atheism is: 'a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a god or any gods'.
You see, the term 'atheism' covers both possibilities.
So atheism can be a belief, just as believing there is no car on my driveway is as much a belief as believing there is a car on my driveway.
You keep talking about how "logically", there are only two possible propositions. We have already agreed this is not the case.
Ok, think you are confused by 'there are only two possible propositions''.
I am not saying logically only two possible propositions exist. I am saying logically for any proposition, we only have that proposition (P) and its negation (~P), with no in between proposition.
Here are some examples:
P: The stars in the universe are even in number.
~P: The stars in the universe are uneven in number.
P: The universe is symmetrical in shape.
~P: The universe is asymmetrical in shape.
P: There is a car on Jupiter.
~P: There is no car on Jupiter.
P: Ultimate Reality is Personal in nature.
~P: Ultimate Reality is Impersonal in nature.
@The Interlocutor
You said in the thread title "Atheists Actually Believe In God", and say this "Based on the laws of logic".
As we have established, this is based more on your definition of atheists rather than anything logical.
Ultimately, when we are in an argument over the meaning of words rather than the nature of reality, we aren't actually establishing anything profound.
It is you who is arguing based on the meaning of words, not me (also I posted the dictionary definition).
OK, forget the word 'atheist'. I have a question (about the nature of reality - since I agree that is the issue):
Between these two propositions...
P: God exists (Ultimate Reality is Personal in nature).
~P: God does not exist (Ultimate Reality is Impersonal in nature).
... do you personally:
1. Believe P is true (or more likely true) over ~P.
2. Neither believe P or ~P as more likely true over its negation/opposite.
3. Believe ~P is true (or more likely true) over P.
You need to define "God" first.
Depending on your definition, it may not even be a matter of belief, but a matter of knowledge.
You're using the common theistic canard of suggesting disbelief requires absolute knowledge. Then mendaciously suggesting this means in the absence of absolute knowledge belief is as valid as disbelief.
Do you believe that invisible unicorns exists? It's not hard to see the flaw in your reasoning, if you are objective that is. Do you believe Vishnu is real? Are you a Hindu?
Theists never treat the existence of a deity in an open minded or unbiased way, atheists pretty much always do.
If there is any objective evidence you can demonstrate for any deity over all the others then why are you trotting out flawed arguments that get you no closer Jesus or Allah than Zeus or Apollo or the Aztec God of gluttony?
@The Interlocutor
Re-read my complaint. That isn't the part I mentioned.
Your linked document gives two criteria for the validity of an argument; and it is incorrect. You're getting first day Philosophy 101 stuff wrong.
I am lost. Are you talking about the criteria I give for how a deductive syllogism is checked for validity (because that is the only place I know of where I give specifically only two criteria)?
I've been very explicit about what portion of the document I was commenting on; and yes, that is the part. That part is extremely wrong; it is so bad it is self-contradictory.
I recommend reading how the word validity is used in philosophy; then changing that portion of the document to reflect that newly found knowledge. Or you could say screw philosophy and just write what you want. But if you are going to go out on your own; I don't recommend borrowing---then altering---the terminology used in philosophy, or you will confuse the shit out of everyone.
The part where theists claim unevidenced bronze age superstition represent a rational belief.
...*right eye starting to twitch faster*... Ummm.... Tried reading a bit of it.... *blank stare returning*... I'm afraid I will have to apply Cyber's Razor to all of this. That is to say, if you insist upon serving so much word salad, it is only proper etiquette to offer a nice dressing to go with it... *drool starting to drip from corner of mouth*...
@ Tin Man
I am with you my clanky friend.
I will add I have never read such a convoluted mess of utter bollocks served with a side of quasi intellectual bullshit since I have been on these forums. And we have seen some real doozies.
If verbosity is a measure of intellectual prowess this guy is a towering genius, however just one paragraph in of his laughable prose reveals he is either a drooling idiot or taking the piss.
Was good laugh though to wade through that stinking mess of sewage.
You're wrong, the question appears to be is it duplicity or stupidity?
@Interlocutor: Atheists Actually Believe In God
Yes. I believe in the oh god of orgasms and hangovers. I also believe in the oh god of terminal boredom trying to sift through a disjointed and meandering collection of non sequiturs.
Otherwise, nope.
@The Interlocutor: What would your response be if the atheists asserted Christians actually don't believe in god. (Nothing else need be said.)
LETS SEE WHAT YOU PUT TOGETHER ANYWAY. I AM PREDICTING THAT YOU DO NOT EVEN HAVE A WORKING DEFINITION OF ATHEISM.
1. You are referring to a sub-set of atheists in the article. The anti-theists or strong atheists. This is not a majority of atheists as a person would have to be just a bit ignorant to assert "All gods do not exist." If the moon is my god, it exists. So the issue is "Why call it God?" Yet some do. The title of your article and of this post are not the same.
First error: You have not defined atheism in a useful way. You are discussing people who do not believe in gods. Including the Sun, the moon, nature, and other things of veneration.
BIBLE: Yes - 0 - have you any reason at all we should take the bible seriously?
1. Argumentum Ad Populum: There was a time when everyone thought the world was flat and diseases were caused by evil spirits. The number of people believing in something is not evidence of that things truth. (LOGICAL FALLACY #1)
1A. Boston University Study; Everyone agrees that the human brain is hard wired to see "AGENCY." This is a biological fact and has noting to do with atheism once the atheists give up on the idea of a god. Atheists are more likely to attribute that which is unknown to simply being unknown or biological manipulation of some sort. No reason to assume God or gods.
PERSONAL EXPERIENCE:
Without supporting evidence, we can reject personal experience outright. That which can be asserted without evidence can be rejected without evidence. Psychiatric wards are full of people, many of them Jesus, who are full of personal experiences. How do we separate those that are real from those that are psychotic. Until they are separated, personal experience is not evidence of any kind.
2A. Belief In God Can Be Rationally Justified Without Needing Inferential Argument/Reason/Evidence <--
NO IT CAN'T.
3. Certain testimonies from ex-atheists.
I think we are once again returning to personal experience. This has already been addressed. (YEP). Nothing here.
4. Same bullshit from current Atheists. (REFERENCE #2) ‘scientism’ and ‘reductionism’ HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH ATHEISM. Atheists are people who do not believe in God or gods. You are pulling an EQUIVOCATION FALLACY. The article was about "PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE GODS DO NOT EXIST." Not ALL Atheists. Now you are trying to sneak in all atheists. THIS IS DISHONEST.
ALL IN ALL A RAMBLING BUNCH OF NONSENSICAL MIND-READING, STUDIES AND INFORMATION TAKEN OUT OF CONTEXT, MANIPULATION OF THE MEANING OF ATHEISM AND A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME.
Is it safe to assume then that Christians actually believe in Odin, even though they claim not to?
Or Ra?
Or Vishnu?
Or Lolth?
Or Morgoth?
Etc, etc, etc...
@LostLocke Re: "Is it safe to assume then that Christians actually believe in Odin, even though they claim not to?"
BAM!... *watching the ball rocket toward the higher level centerfield bleachers*.... *sports announcer voice*... Wow! He really got ahold of that one, ladies and gentlemen! That ball is going.... going.... going.... GONE!.... *LostLocke confidently saunters around the bases waving at the cheering fans*....
@The Interlocutor -
Since every definition and usage of the word "Atheist" that I have ever come across specifically applies to those people who disbelieve in or deny the existence of deities, this renders your thread title (and premise) abjectly void of soundness. Unless, of course, you are completely bastardizing the meaning of the word, and purposefully ignoring everyone else's usage of the word for your own devices. In which case - who cares? Whatever you're calling "atheist" isn't me, because I don't believe that God exists due to a complete lack of compelling evidence, and the horrid, confusing, shit-stained state of the evidence that does exist. I can't claim that I know for sure that He doesn't exist, but I hold no positive belief in His existence whatsoever. Whatever you want to call that, that's what I am. Whatever other thing you want to construct and label "atheist" - all I can say is, good luck with that. Based on this kind of "semantic circus" kind of activity, I don't believe it worth my time to read anything you've written.
Nice to see theistic arguements for the proof of a God have not changed in the slightest...
- Abductive and/or inductive arguements.
- Fallacies of appeal to authority (not to mention others)
- God of the Gaps
- Unable to demonstrate and empirical evidence
- Missrepresent atheists and atheism
And so on....
It's essentially equivalent to arguing with a flat earther.
In short, it's a sophomoric outing into an arena regarded as troublesome by far greater minds than yours.
This is going to be interesting ...
Actually, the term "excluded middle" is better known to many here as the name of a logical fallacy, as covered here.
Which fails to be rigorous, because it fails to state precisely the number of apples involved. There is merely a presumption in your above construction of P, that we are dealing with one apple. P fails to constitute an exclusive proposition, because it will also be true, as it stands, if there are three apples on your desk.
However, the moment we start specifying number precisely, you fall foul of the excluded middle fallacy, because doing so would re-cast your propositions as:
P: There is precisely one apple resting upon my desk;
~P : There is not precisely one apple resting upon my desk.
In this case, ~P is true for zero, two, three or more apples, and only false for one apple.
To remedy this situation, you end up needing two uncoupled propositions:
P : There is precisely one apple residing on my desk;
Q : There are precisely zero apples residing on my desk.
At which point, you need to provide a whole family of numerically precise propositions to encapsulate the possibilities.
Willard Van Ormand Quine devoted an entire chapter of his Methods of Logic to the problems inherent in integrating number within logical propositions. Which should be telling you much about the quicksand you've waded into here.
And at this point, it's time to introduce you to the rigorous approach to the matter. Quite simply, the word "belief" has so much unwanted baggage associated with it, that any rigorous discourse would insist upon better terminology. People use the word "belief" to cover such diverse processes as [1] treatment of unsupported assertions uncritically as fact (yes, supernaturalists, I'm looking at you) and [2] acceptance of evidence pointing to the truth-value of a postulate. Yet these processes are totally different. Consequently, in rigorous discourse, the word "belief" is restricted to cover [1], and in such rigorous discourse, there is, by definition, no justification for "belief" whatsoever. In the case of [2], one either deduces the truth-value of a proposition via an appropriate error-free derivation in the appropriate formal system, or observes the truth-value of a proposition by noting the consonance thereof with observational data.
At this point, your entire exercise has crashed and burned. But I'll continue ...
And courtesy of the above paragraph, what we are dealing with in such a case, is not "belief", but deduction or observation.
I think you should be able to work out from the above, the nature of the problem with your simplistic presentation.
Of course, this simplistic presentation completely fails to encapsulate the notion, that one can contemplate a concept, at the very least for pedagogical purposes, without once considering that concept to be valid. Indeed, you should have noticed yourself, if you had paid attention in the logic classes you assert as the source of your presentation, that the teachers of those classes routinely present false propositions as part of their teaching of those classes. Yet you failed to notice this manifest fact.
If we move on for a moment to the world of pure mathematics (which takes on board the propositional calculus as the basis for its own deductive processes), one of the methods of proof to be found in that discipline, is the method known as reductio ad absurdum. It consists of the following steps:
[1] Treat a proposition initially as if it were true, without committing oneself to this truth-value (the emphasis I place here is deliberate);
[2] Construct a derivation, based upon the purported truth of the proposition, which leads to a logical contradiction;
[3] Note that the contradiction disappears if the proposition is treated as false;
[4] From [2] and [3] above, conclude that the proposition is indeed false.
Note that treating a proposition temporarily as true, for the purpose of deductive analysis, does NOT in any way, shape or form, require commitment to that truth-value. Your failure to understand this elementary concept tells me that you have failed to pay proper attention in your classes.
As a corollary, your assertion that we need to commit ourselves to supernaturalist assertions about god type entities in order to refute them, is utterly destroyed. Treating an assertion temporarily as true, in order to further a deduction ultimately leading to the falsification of that assertion, is a completely different process to that of committing oneself to a given truth-value for that assertion. That is the elementary mistake you are making here. Indeed, the whole point of any properly conducted analytical process, is to avoid committing oneself to a truth-value before the analysis is complete.
Again, Quine is wonderfully informative on this matter. In my electronic copy thereof, pages 197-200, in the chapter Existence and Singular Inference will be worth your while reading.
@ Calli
Once again you plant a truth bomb after completely dismantling a ramshackle edifice of verbosity....*stands back in awe*..I say again "I love your work Calli".
@ Old man shouts...
Get a room.
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