This is an introductory message. Hello all.
As the subject line says, I am not happy to be here, and by "here" I mean atheism. Unlike so many atheists I read about, becoming an atheist was not a liberating experience for me, but a traumatic one. I did not become an atheist out of a quest to reject the shackles of religion and do my own thing. I came to atheism through a hesitant and nervous process of reason, and I came to atheism completely alone. Being an atheist now is not something I celebrate, but something that disturbs me. I am an atheist mostly on an intellectual level. It's a matter of cold hard facts, not sentiment. In sentiment and culture I am firmly attached (if not imprisoned) by my Christian background and environment. My world, the world I grew up in and still live in, the world I understand and relate to, is bible belt and fundamentalist Christianity. My family, both immediate and extended, as well as most all of my friends, are Christians and a part of the same church. I have no intention of telling them about my state of unbelief. It would do nothing but cause a lot of drama and grief. Instead I continue to go to church and bible study and lead prayers. I actually don't feel dishonest about it. It's what I know, it's how I was bred, it's my native language and in the middle of it I almost forget that I don't really believe anymore. Meanwhile, it's not like there's a replacement atheist family and church down the street for me to turn to. Atheism has nothing to offer me it seems. It's just that, so much nothingness. And I don't feel comfortable with atheists and their culture which is so foreign to me. No offense, but my limited and stereotypical image of atheists is that they are one dimensional people who do nothing but sit around in smugness, smirking and ridiculing Christians (think Bill Maher). It's hard for me to warm up to that and join in, since, even though I'm an atheists now, all the people I care about are Christians.
To put it another way, I don't know where I belong anymore. I don't belong anywhere it seems. With Christians I am only pretending, and with atheists I feel like I'm cavorting with the fans of a rival sports team.
So why am I here? For one I guess I need some place to be able to express myself and I was drawn to the website description of caring atheists. Hopefully some may understand what I'm going through and have some patience with my duplicity. It's nothing I planned, it's something that just slowly developed over time and I don't know what to do about it.
I also long to talk to others who think outside of the bible, others with whom I can share non-theistic thoughts, ideas and epiphanies. Even though I'm perfectly at home in the church world I live in, I can't deny that I am also frustrated in it. I have looked behind the curtain and seen the Wizard of Oz for what he really is, yet I am unable to do anything but keep nodding my head in church as I sit and listen to things that are the product of old-world superstition. I long to grow as a person and as a thinker but I can't do that by rereading the bible over and over again. It's lonely being an atheist strictly in my own head. I need to be able to connect with others in this. I also hope to engage in discussions on subjects that trouble me. Subjects that involve learning the atheist worldview of life and death and morality and such. I find myself with contradictory and confusing thoughts as I struggle to see the world in a different way now. Parts of me still want to believe and I struggle to learn how to live apart from my old beliefs.
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I'm not from the Bible Belt, but I can relate on a certain level with you. There are a lot of closeted atheists, so you're not alone. I kept myself in the closet for a couple of months before I couldn't take it anymore and told my wife. Once she knew, I thought that was where I could leave it, and I was just fine going to church for the additional four months. But it wasn't fair to her, and I was kind of forced out.
I saw the same thing as you, and sometimes I still do, when it comes to atheists being quite bold and openly challenging Christianity. I'm okay with that now that I've been out for a while, and you start to realize, "Why not?" I think people who lose their religion - especially a religion that has meant so much to their lives - suffer a kind of Stockholm Syndrome. You want to go back. You want to forget what you know and find comfort again.
I'd advise you to check out Seth Andrews at thethinkingatheist.com. He has podcasts, and he has a soft touch of sorts. Also, there's Jerry DeWitt, a former pastor. His book is excellent. You can listen and read about their experiences, and you'll share in them in an incredible way. There are a lot of us, Conor.
I can't tell you what to do, and I wouldn't presume to know what's best for your situation. But what I do know is, continuing to attend church and play the good Christian will not move you forward. And no, you more than likely will not find the same kind of community that the church offers with atheism.
But, it felt amazing to finally be honest with myself and with others when I let other people know. It's been 2 years for me now, and I'm still dealing with the aftermath. Some bad, some good. I'm still trying to connect with more of the atheist community, still trying to work on my marriage, still working at my relationship with my parents, and still trying to improve myself. But I can honestly say, I've never felt so fulfilled. It was the best thing I've ever done.
I can't speak for others, but I'm here. Message me on the board. I can listen, I can talk. I'm not a church, but I'm at least someone you bounce ideas and concerns off of.
Hello, Conor.
I think you're saying you've had loss; loss of faith, loss of familiarity, loss of comfort, and loss of a sense of community. All these things are change, and you might be grieving them. I encourage youto share your thoughts here, and I think the people in the forum could learn from your experience.
I'm comitted to treating you, and what you have to say, with positive regard.
Welcome!
Welcome to the forum.
Well, i can understand you a bit, since i live in a country(island) where 97% is Catholic Christians.
And it does feel like Alcatraz sometimes.
What helped me is to take the opportunity and learn as much as i could about Christianity and avoid the repetitive things.
This way I learned something from it and few can trick me when using the bible as a source in a debate.
"I actually don't feel dishonest about it. It's what I know, it's how I was bred, it's my native language and in the middle of it I almost forget that I don't really believe anymore. "
Short description:
It is how you have been abused because you never expected close people to tell you lies.
I came to my atheism on my own too, simply because I wanted to know the truth
If you wish to know the origins of Christianity, here is a short video of how and who created it.
Hard to find a working link for this:
http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/174117/Caesars_Messiah__The_Roma...
Feel free to Pm me about anything.
"Meanwhile, it's not like there's a replacement atheist family and church down the street for me to turn to."
If there were, you should still hesitate, atheism isn't really a worldview or a religion. Atheism is a single position on a single subject, individual atheists may not share ANYTHING else at all, because atheism has no dogma, rules, or required beliefs. Atheists need not have any beliefs in common, only one unbelief, and that is as far as it goes.
"Atheism has nothing to offer me it seems."
It isn't supposed to offer anything, it isn't a religion or even a philosophy, it is an unbelief. If you want some kind of structure or community, you should probably look at humanism or some form of ideology, because atheism isn't one.
"It's just that, so much nothingness."
What should one expect? Religion is more than about sharing just a single belief, they also generally share theological laws and doctrines of faith. Atheism is precisely NOT that. We don't really share anything, we agree with each other on a single position on a single subject, we aren't organized like religions or ideologues are.
"And I don't feel comfortable with atheists and their culture which is so foreign to me."
I doubt one could easily say atheists share a culture, we can't even agree on atheism is half of the time.
"No offense, but my limited and stereotypical image of atheists is that they are one dimensional people who do nothing but sit around in smugness, smirking and ridiculing Christians (think Bill Maher)."
I think you are confusing atheism with anti-theism, atheism itself does not actually mean one should oppose religion, one could be an atheist and think religion was GOOD for people. Hell, I am near CERTAIN that most of the ancient priests and prophets of religion were most likely atheists, they just believed it was NECESSARY.
"It's hard for me to warm up to that and join in, since, even though I'm an atheists now, all the people I care about are Christians."
It is what it is. You don't have to like us or want to be around us to be one of us, atheism isn't so much a choice or required worldview, it is a state of belief. If you are, you are.
"To put it another way, I don't know where I belong anymore."
You belong wherever you WANT to be.
"I don't belong anywhere it seems. With Christians I am only pretending, and with atheists I feel like I'm cavorting with the fans of a rival sports team."
Well, in all fairness, most religious people would probably say you NEED church and christian intervention MORE than they do. The church can't save those who already are, so their mission as it were, is more about people like you. At least, that is what I would think...
"So why am I here? For one I guess I need some place to be able to express myself and I was drawn to the website description of caring atheists."
Well, it would probably be a bit of a stretch to consider all of us caring. I doubt I would consider myself as a supremely caring individual, I just am who I am, and will hope it is enough.
"Hopefully some may understand what I'm going through and have some patience with my duplicity. It's nothing I planned, it's something that just slowly developed over time and I don't know what to do about it."
You need do nothing about it if you don't wish to, there is nothing wrong in what you are doing unless you feel like there is, you need not feel guilt over it. You betray no one, unless you feel you are betraying yourself. You don't HAVE to believe to WANT to believe, and if you WANT to believe then you are probably where you NEED to be. Do as you wish, you owe atheism nothing, the only person you owe anything to is yourself.
"I also long to talk to others who think outside of the bible, others with whom I can share non-theistic thoughts, ideas and epiphanies. Even though I'm perfectly at home in the church world I live in, I can't deny that I am also frustrated in it. I have looked behind the curtain and seen the Wizard of Oz for what he really is, yet I am unable to do anything but keep nodding my head in church as I sit and listen to things that are the product of old-world superstition. I long to grow as a person and as a thinker but I can't do that by rereading the bible over and over again. It's lonely being an atheist strictly in my own head. I need to be able to connect with others in this. I also hope to engage in discussions on subjects that trouble me."
We'll be here, take what you need, leave the rest.
"Subjects that involve learning the atheist worldview of life and death and morality and such."
I don't really think there is a single atheist worldview, while many atheists tend to not believe in an afterlife or moral absolutes, some seem to.
"I find myself with contradictory and confusing thoughts as I struggle to see the world in a different way now. Parts of me still want to believe and I struggle to learn how to live apart from my old beliefs."
Every man struggles with life, wisdom wouldn't be rare or difficult if learning and growing were easy.
Very well put.
Thanks for the support, info and clarifications. It's all quite helpful. I look forward to participating in some interesting discussions on here.
Welcome, glad to have you, I just had to make sure that you understood what you are getting into. We being atheists, we spend as much time arguing with each other as we do arguing with the religious. We all like a lively argument, though, so it works out.
It is really nice to hear how people in such environments can wake up, even without trying to do so. It gives me hope for humanity.
I'm not in any such situation as you describe, but I can sympathize with your situation. After all, many atheists "wake up" and feel very alone and alienated. They are often afraid to speak of how they really feel, as it would cause all sorts of problems in their life.
The clergy project was created to help priests who suddenly found themselves to be atheists. Living in a town with a family, where everyone looks up to such a person, it can be impossible to move on in life. So the clergy project was started to help people in such situations. The increase in applicants rose fast since the start. I don't know if you are a professional within the clergy, but perhaps they could be of some help:
"The Clergy Project (TCP) was established in 2011 to provide a safe haven of protected, anonymous online community for former and active religious professionals who no longer hold to supernatural beliefs."
http://clergyproject.org/
Family, friends and a social life is important. It is all a matter of weighing in the options.
For me, as each day passes I feel more and more that I must speak up, let people know that I don't believe in god; that I think that religion, just as anything else, is allowed to be criticized.
But in my situation, it doesn't come at the prize of losing my family and friends. I might have to put a lid on it in some cases, but for the most part I can be open and honest.
"It's just that, so much nothingness."
I don't see it that way.
To me a world free of religion means a life free from all those lies. A world free from indoctrination of children. A world of truth where you see beauty for what it is, not what some made up authority has descided or magically created.
If you continue to live after death, forever, the beauty of life is diminished radically. If an omnipotent being created everything, and can do so any time it wishes, the beauty of life, our planet, the sun, the universe is less fantastic.
Without the shackles of religion, life gets more important; the world we leave behind for our children means more; respect for life increases, both your own and others.
"It's just that, so much nothingness."
"I don't see it that way."
I also hope to one day not see it that way. That's just where I am right now, and in the particulars of my life. Or perhaps it's all my religious indoctrination that taught me to think of atheism this way.
Once you fully understand that you were born atheist and you were thought(forced) theism to become a theist, it becomes all clear.
A religion that thinks that it is based on free will (or a choice), that gives NO choice to people but indoctrinates them when they are kids, is evil in nature.
It is a brainwashing cult, that is just too big and successful.
Once you see Christianity for what it is, you will start to feel ashamed of being called a christian and that is the time when you will truly decide to live your life according to your will.
I agee with you 100%. They talk about "free will" but how is it that, if something is shoved down your throat from when you are an infant?? How did you have the "free will" to choose anything?? I've always felt that being taught religion is the same as being brainwashed. I recently read an article that stated that some religious parents home school their kids because they don't want them learning about evolution in school!! How sick is that?! Purposely closeting a child to close their minds to other possibilities, and other opinions...that is WRONG when it comes to ANYTHING, not just religion. I believe this is a major reason why there are so many messed up people in this world. A post I made a while back stated that it seems as if just about everything we were taught to believe when we were kids isn't true...it's all a lie...and I believe that the PARENTS in too many cases are to blame, with their ridiculous rules, ideas, and traditions that are unchangeable, and untruthful, and FACTLESS.
Yes I agree with you, I seriously considered that parents need to go to school before taking care of their children.
There should be some manner of education at least to guide the parents on some of the most basic things like skepticism, handling better endless child questions etc...
It is depressive to see how religion manages to insert it's fingers everywhere especially with children.
Their attention is mostly focused there and it becomes taboo to even critic those things.
"I seriously considered that parents need to go to school before taking care of their children."
That is something I thought about many times. If you want to drive a car, you have to get a license.
If you want to adopt a child, you have to go through rigorous evaluations to get permission.
But anyone can have a child they can indoctrinate, mistreat, abuse and generally put through hell, if they want.
It is of course impossible to implement and has a lot of other implications, but especially now that population is spiralling out of control, it should be.
Work it out for yourself. As mentioned quite eloquently above, atheism is a position each of us maintains in isolation from each other. We probably differ in many ways but I'm sure the common thread between all people, theists or atheists, remains unbroken; our sense of community and well being. You have changed your subscription about life. That's all. It's a new text free of the regimented doctrine your were previously spoon fed by the conventions of your culture. It isn't a dark unknown. It's an invitation.
I really understand how you feel.In fact, your post has helped me. I was feeling alone too.I was raised in a Southern Baptist family. My family is/was very religious and god fearing. Then I converted to Catholicism as an adult. I have not let them know that I am atheist.I started college and learned many true facts.Moreover, I began to think over matters concerning religion/god intensely. I cannot dismiss history and what is written in stone. I just joined this site tonight.I still attend church with family when asked. It is very uncomfortable. Parts of me as well feel guilty that I have chosen not to believe. I am going to join a secular student alliance at my college. I am sure I will find strength and support there. Take care. I truly hope thing get better for you! :)
I think that is one of the truly disturbing facts about the whole thing, either religion or society can and apparently does make people feel guilt for not conforming to a religion of some sort, it is perhaps the most insidious thing about it.
Exactly.
I imagine this is a lot like the feelings of fear, guilt, shame and alienation as people who are afraid of coming out as homosexual.
@Hypatia069
"Parts of me as well feel guilty that I have chosen not to believe."
Did you actually "choose"?
I don't think it's a conscious choice, but instead just realizing that you lack faith in your religion. That is not something one should have to feel guilt for.
I just think the almost innate sense of shame for not being part of the majority is sad, it is like a psycho-emotional argumentum ad populum, "If I am not like most of the people around me, there must be something wrong with me" mentality that hinders individual thoughts and demonizes individuality. We need to find a way to break people out of this self-effacing desire to conform, because it is actually causing real problems in society and peoples personal lives, and it is a trait that has long outlived its usefulness.
Correct...somehow I feel as if I'm doing something wrong by not believing...I feel that I must keep it quiet...or that I joined this website to state my views, and I feel I can't tell anyone because I am doing something so terrible. Thats the sick way that most people have been brought up!! So much for having "love and tollerance" for everyone!!
This might be of help to some: Recovering From Religion
http://recoveringfromreligion.org/
“I came to atheism through a hesitant and nervous process of reason, and I came to atheism completely alone. Being an atheist now is not something I celebrate, but something that disturbs me. I am an atheist mostly on an intellectual level. It's a matter of cold hard facts, not sentiment.”
Well, you can at least be proud of yourself and of the brains nature equipped you with.
Yet, the situation is a little bit worse than you may have imagined. Here, in this board, you are welcome as long as you do not state that you are absolutely certain that there is no God. If you do that, they will attack you to tear you apart.
I am one of the two (at most three) atheists in this forum and, as you may conclude from my collection of negative signs, they hate my guts.
So, if you managed to become an atheist all by yourself (I was born this way), then you are one of a very small group of people and you must be prepared for loneliness.
"I am one of the two (at most three) atheists in this forum..."
No, you are one of the few gnostic atheists in this forum, as was already explained to you. Your inability to distinguish between statements of belief and knowledge does not change reality, no matter how much you may arbitrarily want it to. If someone does not believe in god(s) they are an atheist, end of discussion.
one of a couple of self-declared militant atheist, actually. He has that in common with amber.
"I am one of the two (at most three) atheists in this forum and, as you may conclude from my collection of negative signs, they hate my guts."
1. I concur with Travis. You are, as a gnostic atheist, in the minority here. However comma there are many many atheists posting here.
2. The button is labeled 'Disagree', not 'I hate his guts'. That you think folks who disagree with you actually hate you is on the paranoid side and pretty egotistical.
“2. The button is labeled 'Disagree', not 'I hate his guts'. That you think folks who disagree with you actually hate you is on the paranoid side and pretty egotistical.”
Let us be honest guys!.
I regard you the worst enemies of atheism and I do hate your guts.
I expose your weakness: your inability to admit that it is because of fear that you doubt the non-existence of YOUR God and, naturally, you hate my guts.
Love and compassion towards enemies is a Christian invention. :-D
I do not hate your guts, but I do regard you as a bit..... damaged.
Your stubbornness when faced with reason does not help you either.
Maybe it comes with old age or culture.
But I really think that you can contribute much more if you can be more open minded and less dogmatic about your beliefs.
Yes, your hate towards agnostics is pure bias and stubbornness in what you belief about the subject.
Dimitrios - "...and, naturally, you hate my guts."
Projection is a m'fer.
Let us be honest? Why not.
You act as a childish bully, trying to demean everybody who does not agree with you. You act obnoxious and try to act superior.
You openly show hate and disgust, and ostentatiously try to promote yourself.
You re-label all atheists that are not aggressively gnostic, as "not atheists" to only "agnostics", and claim to be the only "real" atheist. Redefining the words to your own definition for your own purposes.
Then, after trying to high-jack the word atheist for yourself only, you insult all agnostics and call them "traitors of atheism".
A quote collection:
"Thomson and Dawkins, who support such a theory, I consider as the traitors of atheism (not that the rest of the “New Atheists” are any better)."
"Upon losing your temper, you’ve also lost the game, boy. :-)"
"But, anyway, what are you doing in an atheist community? Spying for the agnostic traitors?"
"You, agnostic guys, are suckers of theological cunning."
"Conclusion: critical thinking of agnostics zero! "
"you suffer from the usual weakness of the agnostics"
"There was never a “concept of god”, the god idea appeared as a joke (JOKE), but you do not want to know differently fearing God’s punishment. :-D"
"Do not give me the satisfaction of driving mad one more agnostic."
"You could learn to become a true atheist with me"
"OVER AND OUT mate, you are contaminated with the disease of the believers which is incurable."
"I despise all agnostics, without exception. :-D"
"I am an atheist who despises agnostics and who regards agnosticism as the main enemy of atheism"
"I suggest that you listen carefully to agnostics. They all say the same things and support the same dogmatic philosophy. They are not actually freethinking persons, they are not individuals, they are a flock following their agnostic (read ignoramus) shepherds."
---
For all I know, your theories could be correct. But it certainly wouldn't seem so...
You mock those who say "I don't believe in a god, but I cannot know if such a god exists or not."
And on that topic you say:
"Absolute certainty exists when scientific procedure tells you that a proposition is absolutely nonsense. Moreover, as an agnostic you may not know whether absolute certainty exists. :-D"
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/inuma-ilu-awilum-when-...
Then you switch around to:
"Absolute certainty is one more idiotic philosophical concept as, for example, fralsifiability. Who cares for absolute certainty? Only theology!"
(Side note: If you do not claim absolute certainty, you are agnostic by definition.)
Then you continue on, to claim that you alone know the truth and that there is a conspiracy against you. That the "academy" or "science" is wrong and you are right.
---
After all this, you try to take a piss on this forum:
"this board, you are welcome as long as you do not state that you are absolutely certain that there is no God. If you do that, they will attack you to tear you apart."
And you try to act a victim and get sympathy?
"as you may conclude from my collection of negative signs, they hate my guts."
And you call others pathetic?
I think 75% of your negative votes are due to your lousy attitude and insinuated insults. Self promoting and claiming international conspiracy against yourself probably doesn't help either...
“Then, after trying to high-jack the word atheist for yourself only, you insult all agnostics and call them "traitors of atheism."
Nice speech, accurate quotes (of which I change not even an iota), sound conclusions but too much whining and no support for your philosophic sophistry of a theory.
If Conor comes back stating that he is absolutely sure that God does not exist, you are going to attempt to make him… see reason and admit that he cannot know for sure that God does not exist.
This is the reason I despise agnosticism (and of course agnostics). You are going to create a next generation of agnostics. You are going to poison the clear thinking of young intelligent people with your idiotic theological theory: “Listen Conor, my boy, since we may not know for sure that the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist, how can we say, with absolute certainty, that God does not exist?”
What is there beyond the outer limits of nonsense?
Psychosis! :-D
Interesting... You didn't even try to deny any of what I wrote. Interesting indeed.
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