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Watchman TC, you wrote, “I can't provide anything to you to demonstrate that it's true, because, as I described, you're spiritually disabled. Your condition isn't hopeless, however -- it's just not up to me.”
My, how handy for you.
I’ll iterate an earlier question = Do you follow all the commands set down in your holy book?
"Do you follow all the commands set down in your holy book?"
I guess you want to go off-topic. Okay, then.
I don't follow the civil and ceremonial laws that were given to the ancient Israelites, because they're fulfilled in Jesus Christ, but I do follow all the commands that were given to me.
Now that you seem to have had that conversation, do you have anything else to say on the matter? Do atheists who don't endorse chance have a supernatural belief...in an imaginary force called Chance?
That conversation is dangling with an open question from me, since the atheist in question expressed an internal contradiction. So far, I'm left with the impression that he's not clear on what he believes.
@Watchman TC: What a run of inane assertion, bullshit, unfounded lies, and idiotic boneheaded rubbish. LET US REVIEW.
"DEBATE DOES NOT MEAN SUBMITTING TO DEMANDS FOR PROOF." Not for simpleton assertions, I guess. You are of course correct. And we will of course assign our belief to the inane assertions you make based on the evidence you provide. After all.... "We all share the idea that a world view should be proportional to the evidence is ..... umm..... rational." YOUR WORDS NOT MINE.
YOU ASSERT THAT THIS GOD THING YOU MENTION IS TRUE AND LIVING.
Please refer to the rational response above. We will all believe in this god thing to the degree of the evidence you provide. No one on this site has a problem with that.
"POWER MANIFESTS IN EVERYONE." Ummmm..... okay. We eat, the food is converted into energy. I don't see a problem here. What's your point?
BIBLE QUOTES: Do you have any evidence that the "BIBLE" Big Illogical Book of Lies about Everything, should be taken seriously. Could you go through it verse by verse and tell us which verses are actually biblical and which ones we can ignore? This is a very confusing point for us. We don't want to kill friends or hate family members who think differently from us. You know! You could even write your own bible about these verses so it would be clear what we are to believe. Most of us don't want to keep slaves. Just because God tells us how to do it, does that mean we have to capture some from the nations around us and torture them? Which parts are we supposed to follow?
"CHANCE CREATED THE UNIVERSE?" Holy shit! How did you figure that one out.? You can win a Nobel Prize. How did you figure out the universe was created? You could win a Nobel Prize for this one. But why are you talking to atheists? You want to talk to "COSMOLOGISTS." How the universe came to be is not a concern of atheism. Even with that said I would love to know, how you ruled out "naturally occurring" or "eternal?" How did you rule out the BYB? How did you rule out the Blue Universe Creating Bunnies? How did you rule out turtles all the way down? How did you get to "Created?" And from "Created," how in the hell did you leap to your version of "God?" REMEMBER, WE CAN ONLY BELIEVE IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE EVIDENCE PROVIDED. WE HAVE ALREADY AGREED ON PROPORTIONALITY OF BELIEF TO EVIDENCE. IF YOU PROVIDE NOTHING YOU ARE ACTUALLY DOING NOTHING BUT RUNNING YOUR MOUTH. ANYONE CAN DO THAT.
YOU KNOW FUCK SHIT NOTHING ABOUT BUDDHISM: There is no belief in a personal god in Buddhism. That, in no way, eliminates all gods, spirits, and mystical thinking. The Buddha himself was born of a virgin from the side of his mother. His birth is not natural. Rebirth and Karma are at the root of Buddhist beliefs. These are absolutely horrible ideas and directly responsible for Cast Systems throughout Asia. Buddhism contains all the rights, scriptures, mythical tales, falsities and horrors of any other religion on the planet.
Atheism is a belief system: No, it is simply disbelief in God or Gods because we proportion out beliefs according to the evidence provided. Until you give us evidence we have no reason to believe anything you say. We do not believe the Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, or Zoroastrians either. Atheists do not believe in God or Gods as we have not yet been presented with evidence. That's it, nothing more. Please cite 10 of the core tenets of atheism. I would love to hear them.
"ATHEISM REQUIRES A WORLD VIEW" How so? You argue cosmology and biology as if that has anything at all to do with atheism. I don't get it. If you want to argue about cosmology or biology you probably need to visit a science site. This is a forum for atheists. People who do not believe in god or gods.
'YOU ASSERT "ATHEISTS BELIEVE EVERYTHING OCCURRED NATURALLY"
No. You are wrong again. Science gives us natural explanations. We of course believe in science to the degree of the evidence provided. REMEMBER THAT?
REMEMBER--- "A world view proportional to the evidence is RATIONAL." Unlike you, science provides us with evidence. You on the other hand, assert blindly, that you need not provide any evidence. "THAT'S PERFECTLY FINE" but why are you here and how will you point to any errors in atheism without evidence? We are perfectly willing to believe all you say. Our belief will be proportional to the evidence you provide.
"ATHEISM IS TAUGHT IN PUBLIC SCHOOL." I never had a class called "Atheism." I have no idea what you are talking about. Can you cite your sources. ON TOP OF THAT - If atheism was a religion - it would be banned from being taught in schools. Separation of church and state would prohibit it from being taught in schools. If you could prove your case, schools would have to remove their dreaded atheist programs from schools. I don't know what would actually be removed as you would have to prove your empty assertions. But if you could prove atheism was a religion I would support you in removing it from the schools. Can you prove it?
"IF YOU CAN NOT ESTABLISH A GODLESS UNIVERSE, YOU CAN NOT SUSTAIN A GODLESS WORLD VIEW." Agreed. Atheists do not sustain a godless world view. They simply do not believe in God or gods. There is no reason to believe in them and you have already asserted that you are not going to give us any reasons. What in the hell are we supposed to do? Our world view is simply proportional to the evidence that has been provided to us.
"ATHEISM REQUIRED INDOCTRINATION." INDOCTRINATION: the process of teaching a person or group to accept a set of beliefs uncritically. Which atheist beliefs are you talking about. I am unaware of any "Atheist Beliefs" I share with any other atheist on the planet. Perhaps you want to talk to "humanists" or "free thinkers." I think some of those groups share beliefs and they happen to be atheist too.
"SCHOOLS SHOULD TEACH DIFFERENT WORLD VIEWS; CHRISTIANITY, ISLAM, AGNOSTICISM (not a world view), ATHEISM (not a world view), HINDUISM, and BUDDHISM. Your wish is granted. All of these are taught currently in comparative religion courses. They have been taught in schools since the 19th Century. "Social scientists in the 19th century took a strong interest in comparative and "primitive" religion through the work of Max Müller, Edward Burnett Tylor, William Robertson Smith, James George Frazer, Émile Durkheim, Max Weber, and Rudolf Otto. [3]"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_religion
I don't think anyone on the site has a problem with a comparative religion course and many of us would probably sign up for it. I know I would.
RELIGION DEALS WITH TRUTH: Sooo..... Bats really are birds? Rabbits actually do chew their cud? A man really can live in a big fish for 3 days? The Exodus really did happen and no one bothered to mention it but the Christians? There really was a Tax Census thing that history just forgot about? WOW! HOW CAN WE BE WRONG FOR NOT BELIEVING ALL THIS BULLSHIT. OH YEA!!!!
"Belief is proportional to the evidence, that's only rational."
"ALL RELIGIONS ARE FALSE BUT ONE." Well hot-damn. We are almost in complete agreement. You only believe in one more religion than we do. You are 99.99% on our side. Now if you only take that one last step, you will be free.
"I HAVE NO DESIRE TO PROVE ANYTHING." And we will believe all you say proportionally to the evidence you provide. Basically, we are in complete agreement. YOU WILL KEEP SPOUTING YOUR IGNORANT UNSUBSTANTIATED MORONIC BELIEFS, AND WE WILL CONTINUE NOT BELIEVING YOU UNTIL YOU SUPPORT THEM WITH FACTS AND EVIDENCE.
"I AM HERE TO EXPOSE THE ERROR IN ATHEISM" GREAT! I am looking forward to it. Once you expose the error, not only will I become a theist but so will every person on this site. WE'RE WAITING...... SO WHAT IS THE ERROR AND HOW DO YOU KNOW IT IS AN ERROR. YOU GOT ANY EVIDENCE AT ALL? ANYTHING?
"NATURAL IS DISTINGUISHED FROM SUPERNATURAL" We all agree. Natural can be measured, observed, evaluated. predicted, and repeated. Supernatural is bullshit and you may as well just say "I don't know." Unless of course you have some sort of reason for us to believe in something called the supernatural. I don't even know what that is. I have never seen an adequate definition. Do you think you have one?
COGNITION, MORALITY, EMOTIONS, JUSTICE, AND LOVE ARE IMMATERIAL. Okay, How is this a problem? All of these are manifestations of the human brain in the same way sight is a manifestation of the eyes and brain and hearing is a manifestation of the ears and brain. Taste is a manifestation of the mouth and brain. Heat and cold are manifestations of the skin and the brain. Sight is immaterial but the eyes are not. Hearing is immaterial but the ears are not. Love is immaterial but the brain is not. Morality is an immaterial concept manifested in actions and directly related to the perceptions of right and wrong in the brain. Destroy the brain and you destroy all of its manifestations. All you have mentioned is direly contingent on brains. Please demonstrate LOVE, MORALITY, or JUSTICE, independent of a brain. We can only allocate our beliefs and world views proportionally to the evidence you provide.
"BIBLICAL FAITH IS BASED ON EVIDENCE AND EXPERIENCE." Well, we are all interested the "EVIDENCE" part of your assertion. We could care less about the "EXPERIENCE." Psych wards are full of people experiencing shit. In fact some of them experiencing the very same shit you are talking about. Experience just isn't very convincing unless of course we also have that direct experience in our lives. I know!!! Why don't you talk to your god and have him give us the same EXPERIENCE he has given you. (Assuming you are not writing these moronic assertions from a psych ward.) As for the EVIDENCE. WELL...... WE ARE MORE THAN HAPPY TO ADJUST OUR BELIEFS AND MAKE THEM PROPORTIONAL TO THE EVIDENCE PROVIDED. (Your Words - We happen to agree with them. ) However; since you have asserted over and over that you are not going to give us that evidence..... WHAT IN THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING HERE. WE ARE NOT INTERESTED IN YOUR DIP-SHIT BULLSHIT.
After reading your first sentence, I find no reason to put in the effort to read your extremely long post.
However, if you can distill it down to a point or two, I'll be happy to put aside your disdainful remarks and respond to the best of my ability.
@ Watchman TC
So to sum up:
Your definitions of atheism and religion are in error.
You have no evidence for your deity except personal revelation.
You came here to preach.
Maybe you should have stayed under the bridge and waited for Gruff.
"Your definitions of atheism and religion are in error."
Care to substantiate that?
"You have no evidence for your deity except personal revelation."
No evidence that you will accept, no.
"You came here to preach."
I came here first to talk about the error of your worldview, as my OP clearly demonstrates.
@ Watchman TC
Anyone reading the first para of your OP would be able to substantiate the fact that you have no grasp of the word "atheist" or atheism.
The subsequent 50 or so posts of word salad, where you get atheism (and much else) so woefully wrong merely confirm your lack of knowledge.
"You came here to preach."
I came here first to talk about the error of your worldview, as my OP clearly demonstrates.
And then you went on to say I'm here for two reasons only: To expose the error of atheism and to share the gospel.
So, you carefully pick the first part of your quote but deny the second?
Careful, the mask is slipping.
@Watchman TC: Not to worry. Everyone else on the site will read it and have a good laugh at the inane absurdity of your posts when they see them all side by side. In fact, the bullshit you have written is so stinky foul that I would not want to read it again myself. So, I agree with you and don't want to stink myself up by revisiting your posts. And I completely understand your unwillingness to provide any evidence for your claims, I would be completely embarrassed to try and support such a spewing forth of drivel myself. Your posts may not be worth the space they use up on the site but they are entertaining. It is completely understandable why you do not want to support any of them with facts or evidence. Once you get them out of your brain, you wipe your fingers and flush the toilet to be rid of them. I think you should just keep posting the bullshit until you run out. When you get to the end of all the bullshit and have nothing stupid left to say, you will be ready for change.
Not compelling.
Watchman TC: YOU CAN READ!!!! Well hell! There is a success story for HOME SCHOOLING! AWESOME! I could not possibly distill the rubbish you spew down to a point or two without being accused of an AD HOMINID attack. I hope you have a support group someplace because you are not getting a whole lot of support around here. I'm starting to feel sad for you.
"YOU CAN READ!!!! Well hell! There is a success story for HOME SCHOOLING!"
Evidently, you can't read. From my OP: "I speak as someone who was raised by unbelievers, went to public schools and an extremely liberal university, and was an atheist until age 43."
Ad hominem is simply making the debate about me rather than the subject at hand. It really has nothing to do with trying to insult me. I don't really care what you say about me, but I'd rather stay on topic.
@Watchman TC: OBVIOUSLY YOU HAVE NOT HEARD OF "COG'S SHOVEL" There is no debate, just moronic assertions. Any child can do that. Your god is a stupid god and the Bible is a book of rubbish not fit to wipe asses with. Jesus was a child molester, a bigot, and a real piece of shit. I don't have to give you any evidence because I am not trying to change your mind. We are just having a debate.
@Watchman TC
"I came here first to talk about the error of your worldview, as my OP clearly demonstrates."
I have not yet seen anything about an atheist "World View."in any of your posts. Just a confused theist making blind ignorant assertions, LET ME HELP
ATHEIST WORLD VIEW
1. ____________________________________________
2. ____________________________________________
3. ____________________________________________
4. ____________________________________________
5. ____________________________________________
We'll see how many atheists on the site agree with you.
In my posts, I talk about the naturalist-materialist worldview that emerges from the atheist presupposition. In my OP, I wrote,
"The atheist can't admit that his lack of belief in God entails a whole belief system. It requires the formulation of a worldview in which existence is possible without God, and as such, he must posit a godless universe in which everything came into being naturally and now exhibits all the wonders we observe. That requires a lot of imagination, fantasy and faith."
@Watchman TC : No you assert that there is a world view that emerges from the atheist presupposition. WHAT PRESUPPOSITION?
Existence may or may not be possible without god. That is not the issue. The issue is, "WHAT REASON IS THERE TO BELIEVE IN A GOD." If you think existence can not exist without a god, prove it and we will all convert to theism.
EVERYTHING CAME INTO EXISTENCE NATURALLY: Who fed you such nonsense. No one knows how the universe came into existence. How did you rule out a natural cause? How did you rule out an eternal universe? How did you rule out Blue Universe Creating Bunnies? How did you get to your version of God? Please share. You could convert us all right now.
"WHAT PRESUPPOSITION?"
You start with the presupposition that God must be proved to exist through natural science.
Which is funny, because science deals with the physical and not the metaphysical, which only allows you to maintain your ignorance regarding the latter. Furthermore, science doesn't prove anything.
"WHAT REASON IS THERE TO BELIEVE IN A GOD."
For the remission of your sins, of course. But even more crucially, it's the truth, and believing what is true is better than remaining in darkness.
"No one knows how the universe came into existence."
I'm not talking about knowing *how* it happened, but rather, that it *did* happen. Logically speaking, you've got only three choices when it comes to the origin of the universe:
1. Natural
2. Supernatural
3. Eternal
If you claim to be ignorant regarding these and figure any of them are possible, then you must be able to formulate a worldview that allows for any of them -- which, by necessity, is a godless one.
That excludes a hybrid option, such as an origin that is both natural and supernatural. It also excludes "don't know", and it takes concepts such as causality and being for granted.
Allow me to clear up your confusion. Any origin of the universe that involves some amount of the supernatural is supernatural. Natural origin presumes a wholly-natural origin.
This isn't a question about what you know. It's about the logical possibilities. The eternal option doesn't take causality for granted.
Let me clear up another confusion in the use of wording. Ahem...
Any origin of the universe that involve the use of MAGIC is Magic. Natural origin presumes a wholly natural origin.
Watchman TC: "You start with the presupposition that God must be proved to exist through natural science."
Not at all. He could pop down and appear before me and give me the same personal experience that he gave you. I will accept any evidence you have that can hold up against critical inquiry. Why don't you pray and have an apple appear on my desktop next to my keyboard. What evidence do you think you have? I would love to hear it.
"SCIENCE DEALS WITH THE PHYSICAL AND NOT THE METAPHYSICAL"
So what deals with the metaphysical? Imagination? Wild flights of fancy? Give me a metaphysical experience of the metaphysical. Simply define what you mean by metaphysical. What are you talking about?
REASONS FOR BELIEF IN GOD"
I have no sin. Do you know what the word means. "Original Sin" SEPARATION FROM GOD. I do not believe in god. Why would I believe I could be separated from something I do not know exists. You make no sense.
THE UNIVERSE CAME INTO EXISTENCE. "IT DID HAPPEN" How do you know this? How did you rule out eternal? How did you rule out the multiverse? Was it just the universe that came into existence or the cosmos as well? You seem to know a whole lot. I would love to see your research. I HAVE ONLY THREE CHOICES - REALLY? Who is stuck in Naturalism now.
1. Natural
2. Supernatural
3. Eternal
4. Aliens
5. Mind in a vat.
6. Computer generated technology
7. Unnatural
8. I made it myself out of magic mud.
The assertion you make does not matter - HOW DID YOU GET TO THAT ASSERTION.
Why are you so stuck on this Godless hypothesis of the universe. It may very well have been created by a god. Why should I believe that. "Belief is allocated to the degree of evidence provided." You got some evidence for your theory, prove it and we will all be theists tonight.
"He could pop down and appear before me"
But you could've just imagined such, right? Or maybe it was an illusion, or a government conspiracy involving psychotropic drugs and lasers. Certainly, such an experience would never stand up to scientific scrutiny, right?
However, I do affirm that you could be saved if you repent of your sins. Then you will see the truth you're suppressing and be born again.
"So what deals with the metaphysical?"
Your spirit, which is currently in idle mode and quite atrophied.
"I have no sin."
Things don't go away just because you don't believe in them. It's time for you to face reality.
"4. Aliens"
Aliens from another universe? That's the only way I can make sense of this. And if that's the case, are they natural or supernatural, or have they eternally existed? Back to the same three origin factors.
"5. Mind in a vat.
6. Computer generated technology"
Both presume an engineer, who was created either naturally or supernaturally, or has eternally existed.
"7. Unnatural"
Undifferentiated from supernatural.
"8. I made it myself out of magic mud."
You really think it's possible that you're God? Serious question -- many unbelievers with a great deal of pride happen to leave this option open.
"HOW DID YOU GET TO THAT ASSERTION."
Logic.
"It may very well have been created by a god."
And you demand to be given evidence that will pass your own tests, but I know that you're suppressing the truth in order to serve your sin. There's really no reason for me to feed you evidence to deny, since you already have plenty.
@Watchman TC: "Certainly, such an experience would never stand up to scientific scrutiny, right?" How would that make a difference. I would have direct experience. Your direct experience may seem absurd to me. My own direct experience is what I have to understand the world around me. I might get locked away but like other human beings, I tend to believe my own direct experience.
REPENT FROM SINS:
I have no sins. I do not believe in god or gods. I can not be separated from that which does not seem to exist.
SPIRIT DEALS WITH THE METAPHYSICAL: Using one abstraction to explain another is bullshit. Pure bullshit.
By supernatural regeneration. = INANE BULLSHIT ASSERTION.
"There's really no reason for me to feed you evidence to deny, since you already have plenty."
Then there is no reason for me or anyone to believe you. In your own words, "A world view proportional to the evidence provided is -- RATIONAL." You just want to make inane assertions and give us nothing. What in the fuck is your problem. You are just being an asshole. If you really believed in the God you profess to believe in and an afterlife, you would want to save everyone on the site and give us the evidence for your belief "AS YOU HAVE BEEN INSTRUCTED TO DO."
15 But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have.
"In your own words, 'A world view proportional to the evidence provided is -- RATIONAL.'"
I never said that.
"Then there is no reason for me or anyone to believe you."
I don't expect you to believe me -- but I do expect that people do get convicted of their sins and repent, because it happens.
People aren't saved by getting evidence. As I've said, you already have the evidence, and it ain't saving you. You must be born again.
Regarding 1Pe 3:15, it's always a blessing when atheists quote scripture. I love it! Anyway, I'm giving you the reason for the hope that I have within me, and I'm not bothered by your hostile response to it.
Did you know that this is the verse where we get the word "apologetics?" The underlying Greek word translated there as "answer" or "reason" is ἀπολογία - apologia. It has nothing to do with meeting the unbelievers' demands for proof, which are mere subterfuge.
I'll disregard your personal attacks.
@Watchman TC: I don't expect you to believe me -- but I do expect that people do get convicted of their sins and repent, because it happens.
Then we are in complete agreement. You don't expect me to believe you and I don't believe you. END OF DISCUSSION.
I could give a fuck about idiotic assertions of sin. You do not even appear to know what the word means. I don't believe in God or gods and have no reason to. Your bullshit "sin" means nothing to me. I may burn in hell but you will spend your life dwelling in complete ignorance. I choose my life. You go ahead and condemn all the people you want to condemn. I have better things to do.
And how does that make you feel?
@Watchman TC: Are we attempting to salvage our broken ego once again? I am sorry your belief in Santa, God and Jesus and the Bible has been crushed. It must be devastating for you. Perhaps you could take a Valium along with that six pack of beer. When you play with the Atheists that's just what happens, you get owned. Baby Jesus just gets ripped right our of your magical thinking and God vanishes in a puff of myth along with all the other gods. We know this transition is hard for you so you just keep letting it all out. Just spew your nonsense until you just have nothing left. Let it all out. We are here to help.
You just couldn't help but invoke the word "ego," could you? You're brainwashed.
The way you're handling your problem of sin (by denying it exists) is neither surprising nor amazing, and it's no resolution at all.
But I'm not a licensed psychotherapist. Yikes.
The evidence that @Watchman TC has no evidence for his claims about the existence of "God" is abundant and obvious.
Rather than just calling this an assumption, why doesn't he try to refute them?
I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
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