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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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@Nyarlathotep: And might require a prime prime mover.
Yep. What's a cue ball going to do without a cue, and someone to push the cue?
I think the prime mover is inevitably complex and conscious. Not only is it responsible for spawning a universe, it's responsible for allowing everything inside the universe to take form; which incidentally includes life and consciousness. So by definition, not only is it conscious, it has all the knowledge that can ever be known.
OH FFS!!! Cog's Razor: Any dweeb can make an assertion.
I think the Prime Mover was a frigging jar of peanut butter. This peanut butter is inevitably complex and conscious. Not only is it responsible for spawning a universe but it is responsible for allowing everything inside the universe to take form. Incidentally, this includes life and consciousness. So BY DEFINITION not only is this jar of peanut butter conscious but it has all the knowledge that can ever be know. It is also non-corporal, existing beyond time and space, omniscient, omnipresent, all loving, and it will respond directly to your prayers with miracles. PROVE ME WRONG.
Let me prove you wrong. A peanut jar is by definition a thing in the natural world; and the source of existence cannot be something within existence. There, done.
You, Sir, are committing a non sequitor by attaching something supernatural to something natural.
Looks more like a postulate, than a proof.
This is a reoccurring theme here. Theists come here, with their canned proofs, which are often valid, but contain a truckload controversial postulates. That isn't a very good way to convince someone who doesn't already agree with you.
And there is another problem: the postulates of theists A often contradict theist B, C, and D. So even if we were predisposed to just accept these (and there is little chance of that happening), the next question is who's should we accept? Why should we accept your set of controversial postulates instead of one of the many other sets we have received?
Please be kind to Jazz Theist. I have just discovered that I may be his future father. His mom and I have been involved romantically. The whole issue has become clear. He followed me here to insult friends and people I hang out with. He is angry at me and referrs to me as (MFer). He just does not know how to deal with his anger.
EVERYONE PLEASE BE KIND TO JAZZTHEIST. He is just misguided and needs love and acceptance.
What a great example of the projection effect.
Group hug everyone. Then we shall sing Kumbaya.
Postulates are necessary. Mathematics is based upon them. In fact, if you demand everything to provide physical evidence, tons of science would be false at default; for example: black holes, worm holes and Hawking radiation. Which is the problem of the naturalistic worldview.
It's interesting that naturalism is always brought up in a negative manner by theists/believers.
What one would have to ask is, does naturalism collapse due to these few issues or is it more to the case that we are limited by our very own knowledge?
When it comes to the universe, naturalism is the only model that works and it is as efficient as it is accurate.
A theistic world view now in this modern age, simply piggy backs upon the work of science and tries to slide in their personal views when we reach an end pass of human knowledge.
Super-naturalism doesn't even qualify as a hypothesis, it is that poor a concept/idea.
But perhaps that just demonstrates the glaring flaws in theology in that all that can be said in the way of supporting the notion is via logical arguments (which are usually awful), god of the gaps fallacies and so on.
It is intriguing that with the more we learn, the less we require theism and the more a phenomena is explained by perfectly natural explanations.
Right, but I was discussing controversial postulates. They are pretty much worthless for convincing anyone who is skeptical of them, imo.
@JazzTheist
" the source of existence cannot be something within existence."
Where did you come from? Your parents.
Or... are you stating that you do not exist?
JazzTheist: "I think the prime mover, Lysantra, is inevitably complex and conscious. Not only is Lysantra responsible for spawning a universe, she is responsible for allowing everything inside the universe to take form; which incidentally includes life and consciousness. So by definition, not only is Lysantra conscious, she has all the knowledge that can ever be known.
Wow. You just described the Elfin Goddess that lives with me, Lysantra Erisa Tinathis Yeraheshmiël. Thanks for that.
And you would really love some of the ideas she has as to what should be done with all Religious Absolutists like yourself.
rmfr
What a pile of non sequitor (sigh).
And your pile is any better?
rmfr
@JazzTheist
"I think the prime mover is inevitably complex and conscious. Not only is it responsible for spawning a universe, it's responsible for allowing everything inside the universe to take form; which incidentally includes life and consciousness. So by definition, not only is it conscious, it has all the knowledge that can ever be known."
This is just a bold assertion that cannot be supported in any way by empirical evidence.
And it doesn’t need to be.
So you concede that your god can not be proven?
@jazztheist
What objective evidence do you have a prime mover exist? What objective evidence do you have it created anything?
Existence itself.
@JazzTheist
I am the LogicFTW god. You must bow down before me and give me all your worldly possessions!
What is my proof that I am your god? Existence itself!
Wait.. why are you not bowing before me? Why are you not giving me all your stuff? What you mean my proof of: "existence itself" is not proof you will accept?? Why not?? It works for your god idea!
... do you see yet why that argument does not work?
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▮ I am an atheist that always likes a good debate. ▮
▮ Please include @LogicFTW in responses directed to me. ▮
▮ Useful list on forum usage. A.R. Member since 2016. ▮
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@jazzthiest
Existence doesn't prove that your god is real. You have to provide more than subjective evidence that your god is real.
You have failed to provide objective evidence for your god's existence.
What you think:
"I think the prime mover is inevitably complex and conscious. Not only is it responsible for spawning a universe, it's responsible for allowing everything inside the universe to take form; which incidentally includes life and consciousness. So by definition, not only is it conscious, it has all the knowledge that can ever be known."
What I think:
I think the prime mover is not that complex but it is conscious and it is this invisible, undetectable bunny living under my bed. Not only is it responsible for spawning a universe, but it's also responsible for allowing everything inside the universe to take form; which incidentally includes life and consciousness. So by definition, not only is it conscious, it has all the knowledge that can ever be known.
What is the difference?
You cannot define things into existence.
Yes, there is a big diference.
A bunny, by definition, is a thing in the natural world. The philosophically necessary first cause by definition cannot be a thing in the natural world. Case closed.
Sorry to contradict. An invisible, undetectable bunny is not part of the natural world. At least my bunny, with colors
no equipment can detect. Case open. You cannot define things into existence.
@JazzTheist: I think the prime mover is inevitably complex and conscious.
Where did you get all this arcane knowledge about god (aka "prime mover")? You've referred to "philosophical inference". From what features of existence did you infer your prime mover theory? Do you consider life and consciousness to be in a different category from other natural phenomena, such as gravity and nuclear fusion? If so, why?
No no no. Whether or not consciousness is natural has nothing to do with my position.
The reason why I mentioned consciousness is to emphasize the point; for there would such an objection: “the prime mover is not necessarily conscious; therefore it is not necessarily a God”.
And that is logically false; because since consciousness exists, and that the cause can’t be inferior to its creations, the cause by definition must be conscious. Thus a God.
JazzTheist: "No no no. Whether or not consciousness is natural has nothing to do with my position."
Yes sweetie, you stand your ground against those mean atheists, Just because they can't understand you does not mean you are wrong. If you had better English skills or more education you would be able to trash them all.
Yes, the PRIME MOVER could be a rock, or a blue universe creating road kill rabbit. It does not have to be conscious. You are so smart for thinking of that. There is no reason at all the PRIME MOVER has to be anything. It could be a nose hair in the wind. Like Vincent Van Gogh, you are just ahead of your time. No one can understand you. Perhaps they'll hear you now. Tell mommy I said "Hi."
"....the cause can’t be inferior to its creations..."
Temperature and pressure differences create hurricanes. Are temperature and pressure differences inferior? What is the meaning of that?
Define "INFERIOR" in your case.
Those are simply ''how'' things that fall into the realm of science and naturalism.
But here's what I mean by ''cause can’t be inferior to its creations'':
Gather a bunch of cards and stack them up. Can you stack them up to the moon? No; because they are too small.
It's more of a logical inference.
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