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"We share one thing in common -- there are passages in the bible that make sense, but by and large, the book is bullshit. "
None of it is bullshit. Its a story book. People who claim it is a history book or a science book are bullshit, not the book itself.
You can not fairly critique a story book on the false premise that it is a history book, or science book.
It isn't important if some angel really existed, what's important is what did the angel say and do? You see, it isn't important if ET really existed and visited earth, what's important is the story itself. Neither ET, nor any Bible story are bullshit.
Fascinating position :) But yeah, I have to agree with the atheists. A Christian is one who follows the teachings of Christ, and in the Bible Christ says that He is the ONLY way to Heaven. So if you don't believe that bit that is found in the Bible, you are not a Christian because you are not following Christ.
Of course, you could believe ANYTHING and call it Christianity... but then you are just playing around with definitions and conversation becomes difficult because others have to adjust culturally accepted meanings based off your personal ones.
But I did enjoy reading the thread :)
@Vincent Paul Tran
"I still regard myself as a christian though for the simple reason it largely means "follower of Christ", which I try to do."
If you were a slave would you follow his teaching of:
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord." Colossians 3:22
and
"Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh" 1 Peter 2:18
Or would you instead try to fight against slavery?
Just to see if you are a christian/hypocrite or a moral honest person.
(you must be a hypocrite to try and have it both ways)
"@Vincent Paul Tran
"I still regard myself as a christian though for the simple reason it largely means "follower of Christ", which I try to do."
If you were a slave would you follow his teaching of:
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord." Colossians 3:22
and
"Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh" 1 Peter 2:18
Or would you instead try to fight against slavery?
Just to see if you are a christian/hypocrite or a moral honest person.
(you must be a hypocrite to try and have it both ways)"
You can follow someone and disagree with them. I don't know what the slave system was like in Roman times, so I cannot say one way or the other
"You can follow someone and disagree with them. I don't know what the slave system was like in Roman times, so I cannot say one way or the other"
You cannot follow an ideal and at the same time disagree with it.
You make the mistake of attributing the teachings to a particular person when before u stated that it was propaganda.
"I don't know what the slave system was like in Roman times, so I cannot say one way or the other"
You don't need to know anything about the slave system to be a decent human being and accept the fact that owning an other human being is morally wrong.
Was wrong back then and still is.
So this is just a dodge that shows that you are indeed dishonest and hypocritical with yourself and others.
Typical Christian attributes.
Congratulations, now we know for sure you are a Christian.
""You can follow someone and disagree with them. I don't know what the slave system was like in Roman times, so I cannot say one way or the other""
"You cannot follow an ideal and at the same time disagree with it.
You make the mistake of attributing the teachings to a particular person when before u stated that it was propaganda."
The ideal i follow primarily in the gospels is to be kind and compassionate. there are some very specific verses that state this. I agree that the gospels has Jesus say some truly atrocious things. BUt as Plato did to Socrates, perhaps he never said them (if he ever existed)
""I don't know what the slave system was like in Roman times, so I cannot say one way or the other""
"You don't need to know anything about the slave system to be a decent human being and accept the fact that owning an other human being is morally wrong.
Was wrong back then and still is.
So this is just a dodge that shows that you are indeed dishonest and hypocritical with yourself and others."
Slavery has been around for thousands of years. I'm not the type to lead a slave revolt if that is what you mean. If I lived in Confederate times and was in the position to do so, I may have helped with the underground railroad. You are making a moral judgement about the Roman system without knowing a whole lot about it. Obviously owning people is wrong, but that doesn't mean I could have found a better solution
Also, you seem to be religion baiting, Jeff. Is this intentional?
Always an enlightening conversation.
Cheers :)
Typical Christian attributes.
Congratulations, now we know for sure you are a Christian.
"You are making a moral judgement about the Roman system without knowing a whole lot about it. Obviously owning people is wrong, but that doesn't mean I could have found a better solution"
Owning people is morally wrong and it should not be a problem for you to accept that fact and say it out loud that you disagree with the teachings of Jesus.
But it does, since you have not accepted it yet, are you in denial?
The roman empire is a fascist empire built on conquest, and run a fascist empire one needs a lot of money, slavery is the source of money that runs a fascist empire like the roman empire.
I know a hell lot about the history of the roman empire and I can talk a lot about them.
The point that you missed is that Morally this makes no difference.
It makes no difference that a fascist empire could not run without slavery since fascism is also a morally wrong thing to have.
" I'm not the type to lead a slave revolt if that is what you mean."
You do not need to revolt to disagree with slavery and peacefully complain about it.
"The ideal i follow primarily in the gospels is to be kind and compassionate."
it is not kind and compassionate to slaves.
You are also claiming that the slaves part has been added and the other "good" parts were not.
Did you know that most if not all the "good" parts are copied(word for word) from earlier text?
Jesus did not invent them himself, the authors just copied them in the mouth of Jesus.
eg:
"Do to others as you would have them do to you." Luke 6:31
is basically the same thing of the old testament, apart that it is taken from other older religions too:
Buddhism: 560 BC, From the Udanavarga 5:18- "Hurt not others with that which pains yourself."
Judaism: 1300 BC, from the Old Testament, Leviticus 19:18- "Thou shalt Love thy neighbor as thyself."
Hinduism: 3200 BC, From the Hitopadesa- "One should always treat others as they themselves wish to be treated."
Zoroastrianism: 600 BC, From the Shast-na-shayast 13:29- "Whatever is disagreeable to yourself, do not do unto others."
Confucianism: 557 BC, From the Analects 15:23- "What you do not want done to yourself, do not do to others."
Christianity: 30 AD, From the King James Version , 7:12- "Whatsoever ye would that others should do to you, do ye even so to them."
basically all the "good" are copied from previous texts.
Remove the collection of "good"/successful previous ideals and you are left with just the Propaganda which you seem to agree.
"Obviously owning people is wrong, but that doesn't mean I could have found a better solution"
Yes, remove Fascism? Or you want to abstain from that too?
Jeff, when was the last time you removed fascism from this world? Are you in a grassroots movement I am unaware of, or are you going to nitpick on me because I am a Christian and I am an easy target on these forum? Sitting back making moral judgements upon me when you take no real action against what you do not like is hypocritical.
as i said, it does not matter what my actions are, it does not effect my moral judgment.
You are making a fallacious argument that I must always take actions on my judgments.
That I have to agree with everything that I take no action against.
This kind of argument is childish.
Do you really need to take action against slavery to have the opinion that slavery is wrong and that those that preach in favor of slavery are wrong?
Do you?
Does it matter if it is a necessary evil,(eg a unclear bomb to keep peace) does it make good?
NO, it is just a necessary evil to solve a problem that currently there is no better solution for.
About slavery, there were better solutions, to this day we don't have slaves yet we manage, there were entire communities not having slaves in the past and managed, only the evil Fascist roman empire required slavery.
Abstaining from an opinion on this matter means that you fail to reason honestly because this is quite logical.
Owning as property a human being or any other sentient being is morally evil.
If you do not know this basic logical conclusion there is something wrong with you.
"as i said, it does not matter what my actions are, it does not effect my moral judgment.
You are making a fallacious argument that I must always take actions on my judgments.
That I have to agree with everything that I take no action against."
For a moral judgement to have any meaning to a person, action must be taken if action can be taken. Morally, we should junt down Joseph Kony to bring him in for crimes against humanity and to save the slave child he has at his disposal. A moral person who despises slavery would take action against it. Since no one does, does that mean no one really cares if someone is a slave in reality? May it all just be empty puffery
"This kind of argument is childish."
Perhaps. But there is nothing wrong with argueing as a child does. They can be the best reasoning machines on the planet
"Do you really need to take action against slavery to have the opinion that slavery is wrong and that those that preach in favor of slavery are wrong?
Do you?"
If you honestly believe slavery is wrong but do nothing to end it you are no better than the privaleged white people that did not join the black civil right movement or bowed to the Jim Crow Laws
"Abstaining from an opinion on this matter means that you fail to reason honestly because this is quite logical."
I admit my flaws. I despise slavery, know slavery exists right now, but do nothing against it. That makes me a hypocrite and I do not like that about myself
Cheers :)
Owning as property a human being or any other sentient being is morally evil.
If you do not know this basic logical conclusion there is something wrong with you.
"If you honestly believe slavery is wrong but do nothing to end it you are no better than the privaleged white people that did not join the black civil right movement or bowed to the Jim Crow Laws"
wrong again
You are making the fallacious assumption that I can do something or that I am in a position to do something.
Eg:
If I speak against slavery, my family would be killed.
Even if my opinion is against slaver, it does not mean I can afford to take action.
Slavery could be used in some countries where I do not have much control over.
I can file a complaint, but it may fall on deaf ears.
Actions depend mostly on what one can do vs what he is willing to do.
Not always your opinions are strong enough to overcome what you wish for yourself and others.
Sometimes I wish to buy a new car because I deserve it, but my opinion on what i deserve does not mean that I will take action on it, especially if I have other responsibilities like buying a computer for my kid.
"Perhaps. But there is nothing wrong with arguing as a child does."
There is, because it shows lack of maturity and understanding of the subject at hand.
I hope you do not bring up such childish arguments in the future.
I concede that if specific circumstances prevent you from doing anything about this issue, then that is......... I have no idea. I suppose it depends on your hierarchy of values. If you value your family more than ending the dehumanization of strangers....... I don't know. As to whether we have the capacity to change things, I believe we can change anything for the better if we put our minds together properly. I am still in my twenties so I still have that hopeless idealism. If I cared enough, if people in general cared enough, slavery would not have even existed. But it did and does and may always exist. So what does that say about us as a people?
Have you ever met a truly curious and bright child? They see and understand things that are beyond many adults.
"I concede that if specific circumstances prevent you from doing anything about this issue, then that is......... I have no idea."
No idea?, If you can't do something, you just can't. There is No having no idea.
Is this one of your other dodges?
"If you value your family more than ending the dehumanization of strangers....... I don't know."
Actions depend on values, but that does not mean that your openion of "dehumanization of strangers" changed.
You just dodged the main point here yet again.
"I believe we can change anything for the better if we put our minds together properly."
Yes indeed we can and that is why religion has been loosing power to reason by the minute.
" if people in general cared enough, slavery would not have even existed. "
Good morning, there are some evil twisted power hungry people, out there, including the church.
What is worse, is that according to your theology god designed it in this way.
I do not know which is the worst, if it is the evil god character or the deluded sick fuck that thinks that the god character is the good guy in the horrible christian theology, where you have the father torture and sacrifice himself, for himself, so that he would be able to forgive is own actions of putting a talking snake in the garden that resulted in the exaggerated evil punishment he himself gave.
One should be ashamed to even be called christian by accident.
You on the other hand seem to not know what baggage you are taking with you when you call yourself a christian.
""I concede that if specific circumstances prevent you from doing anything about this issue, then that is......... I have no idea.""
"No idea?, If you can't do something, you just can't. There is No having no idea.
Is this one of your other dodges?"
I honestly don't know at this point.........
""If you value your family more than ending the dehumanization of strangers....... I don't know.""
"Actions depend on values, but that does not mean that your openion of "dehumanization of strangers" changed.
You just dodged the main point here yet again."
What is the main point?
""I believe we can change anything for the better if we put our minds together properly.""
"Yes indeed we can and that is why religion has been loosing power to reason by the minute."
Good for reason :)
"" if people in general cared enough, slavery would not have even existed. ""
"Good morning, there are some evil twisted power hungry people, out there, including the church."
I don't understand why people like that exist
"What is worse, is that according to your theology god designed it in this way."
This is not my theology. I don't even know if a God or Goddess exists.
"I do not know which is the worst, if it is the evil god character or the deluded sick fuck that thinks that the god character is the good guy in the horrible christian theology, where you have the father torture and sacrifice himself, for himself, so that he would be able to forgive is own actions of putting a talking snake in the garden that resulted in the exaggerated evil punishment he himself gave."
I don't believe those stories actually happened.
The point was that you can have an opinion without the need of doing an action about it.
My opinion is that all Christians should start reading the bible for real, now I can go and force bible studies in school for Christians if I had the power but I simply do not have the power and I also have mixed opinions about letting people waste their time with such an evil book.
"I don't believe those stories actually happened."
Then don't call yourself a christian, it is a very shameful title that includes the blind belief in those stories as the foundation of the christian god.
No original sin= no salvation = no Jesus = no heaven = no Christianity.
Vincent Paul Tran - "I don't know what the slave system was like in Roman times, so I cannot say one way or the other"
Not willing to take a stand against the owning of another human being; defiantly a Christian.
"Vincent Paul Tran - "I don't know what the slave system was like in Roman times, so I cannot say one way or the other""
"Not willing to take a stand against the owning of another human being; defiantly a Christian."
And when was the last time you stood up against the slave system? Are you in Africa right now fighting a war to end the use of child soldiers?
I'll do it right now: slavery is fucked up, any religion that endorses it is fucked up, any follower of that religion who says "I cannot say one way or the other [about slavery]" is fucked up.
I'll do it right now: slavery is fucked up, any religion that endorses it is fucked up, any follower of that religion who says "I cannot say one way or the other [about slavery]" is fucked up.I'll do it right now: slavery is fucked up, any religion that endorses it is fucked up, any follower of that religion who says "I cannot say one way or the other [about slavery]" is fucked up.
All you are saying is words. You're not actually DOING anything. This is what forums allow - a way to pat yourself on the back for being morally superior when there are people actually doing real work to alleviate the suffering in this world. When was the last time you went to a third world coutnry to teach them better farmer techniques? Or help them build a well? Or find Joseph Kony? The list is innumerable of things you could do to back up your empty words. But you won't, because you don't actually care about people
Vincent Paul Tran - "because you don't actually care about people"
Vincent Paul Tran - "Now I just don't give a fuck. People will die and suffer and it is their fault"
projection much?
"Vincent Paul Tran - "because you don't actually care about people"
Vincent Paul Tran - "Now I just don't give a fuck. People will die and suffer and it is their fault"
projection much?"
Probably :(
Cheers :(
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