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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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@ Flatland
"If you're interested, I consider the origin of the universe god, whatever it is."
By my definition, then "god" is the instant of the rapid expansion?
I just call god "rapid expansion". And the best I know, no supernatural process were in play.
geesh, why can't I get a concise definition instead of confusing and fuzzy mumbo jumbo?
@David Killens
Hah! He just admitted he does not know! "whatever it is."
Honest at least.
Still, woah! He worships and builds his life around an unevidenced idea other people told him about, and he has no idea what it is!!
No wonder he is so vague on description, he does not know what he worships, yet he shows up on atheist board wanting to tell us all about this thing he worships... but... apparently can not!
I thought it was no one else's business? That said why would anyone be interested in unevidenced assertions like that? You can't even attempt to objectively define the deity you're claiming created everything, or explain how it did this. In a forum of atheists, it stuns me that you can't see how risible it is to make such a claim?
@David Killens
God is a being that doesn't require a cause to exist for two reasons :
1 - he is god and like a said earlier you can't apply something on god that has existed after him (cause is a creation of god too).
2 - we need a first cause that caused us (first cause mean that doesn't have a cause before him)
why we need a first cause ? because if we don't we're going to have an infinite chain of causes and
so this infinite chain will not finish so we can exist.
Imagination deal with images, trying to imagine god who doesn't have anything to do image is wrong !
@Nogba
You know, I actually agree with parts of your post. But I am still firmly atheist.
Let me break it down:
I agree! "God" is an idea that doesn't require a cause to exist for way more than 2!! reasons. No ideas require a cause to exist, they just exist, but if you want to say your idea is more than just an idea, you got to evidence it. But we already know you can't.
Yep in your god idea construct that exist solely in your own head where you can make all the rules, you created a nice little loop where everything derives from your god idea, this then allows you, within your own mind regarding the god idea to make it okay that your god idea makes no reasonable or logical sense, and we already know there is zero evidence to make your god idea to graduate your idea to actual reality. So in the make believe world in your head you get to apply whatever rules you want about your god idea. It is called: a fantasy. Not only that, but it seems like you borrow a lot of fantasy work from your peers to make your "fantasy" work.
Yeah the god idea is real convenient for ending the infinite chain of unknowns. By stating god is unknown and un-understandable and zero rules apply to it (including basic logic and reasoning that we should try to apply to our ideas to make them more useful.) So truly your god idea does not require a "cause" to exist. Because you made it so in your head.
Your god idea has zero bearing on reality, you do understand that right Nogba? You are simply making up rules for your invisible sky daddy friend and then trying to explain to us why your god idea works.
Well at least for me, I need a lot more than pretty words to join you in your fantasy idea. Especially considering quite often its expected I give up my sunday mornings, and even be coerced (tithes) into paying people to lecture me about said idea.
@ Nogba
"1 - he is god and like a said earlier you can't apply something on god that has existed after him (cause is a creation of god too)."
All you are doing is claiming there is a god.
"2 - we need a first cause that caused us (first cause mean that doesn't have a cause before him)
why we need a first cause ? because if we don't we're going to have an infinite chain of causes and
so this infinite chain will not finish so we can exist."
Please prove that the entire cosmos is not infinite in time and reach. Presently, no one can prove either hypothesis, infinite or not.
I am disappointed Nogba, this definition is vague and incomprehensible. Sadly, I must come to the conclusion you are attempting to argue your god into existence.
My standards of evidence are higher, in fact so with science. When Einstein published his Theory of Relativity, It was not accepted by the scientific community until 1919 when Eddington studied a solar eclipse, and the results confirmed Einstein's theory.
Unevidenced assertion No 1.
Unevidenced assertion No 2.
Unevidenced assertion No 3
Unevidenced assertion No 4.
NB You don't even attempt to evidence your assertion the universe required a cause, or explain why this "first cause" must be a deity, let alone why it happens to be the deity you were taught was real. You just posted a long list of unevidenced assumptions, and I count two known informal logical fallacies. What's more you claim that infinite regress is impossible then claim a deity has existed forever, surely a contradiction that requires an explanation and evidence for any argument to be taken seriously. You imply the universe couldn't have existed forever, without explanation or evidence, yet claim a deity can, again without evidence or explanation, the very definition of circular reasoning.
Edited: grammar, and clarity.
@Nogba
What objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity? If the answer is none, then your long list of unevidenced claims about it is meaningless to me sorry. You might as well be talking about skin care for mermaids.
@Sheldon
I don't think there is any more objective evidence then that, this is logic I'm not speculating otherwise it's not going to be called faith anymore.
I don't see where i didn't make sense in my evidences. i don't know at what level you call something an objective evidence
when you see god in front of you ? what doesn't emit photons can't be seen.
I think those are same good evidence to start thinking and have faith.
@ Nogba
"what doesn't emit photons can't be seen."
Pish
How do bats navigate in the darkest night? How do dolphins navigate and even find food where their eyes cannot work? How can someone sitting at a radar station detect and identify an aircraft 200 kilometers away?
Just recently a team generated an image of a black hole, something by it's nature that can not be seen with the eyes.
Than what, you have offered none?
It cannot both be unevidenced faith and rational, you haven't even a basic grasp of logic, you have shown that by repeatedly using known common logical fallacies like argumentum ad ignorantiam and begging the question fallacies, look them up. You can't simply claim something is rational, that is not how logic works, in order for something to be rational it must adhere to the strict principles of validation contained within the method of logic.
Again then, you have not offered ANY evidence, objective or otherwise, just strung endless and tedious unevidenced assertions together.
Obviously when it can be objectively validated, and is not mere unevidenced opinion, as your assertions clearly are.
Well there you go, another unevidenced assertion about a deity you cannot demonstrate a shred of objective evidence for. Why on earth do you find this risible nonsense compelling?
Nothing in that sentence is true. Firstly you're not thinking at all, you're simply regurgitating religious rhetoric you have been taught and accepted unchallenged. Secondly, and yet again, you have not offered any evidence at all, objective or otherwise, I don't think you know what the word evidence means sorry. Lastly faith is the very antithesis of objective evidence, why on earth would you need faith if something can be objectively evidenced, that is an absurd claim, and again since you ignored it, faith is useless for validating any claim belief or assertion, as you can literally believe anything based on faith. Simply ignoring this won't make your spiel any less idiotic or facile.
Do try and address the objections to your woeful apologetics this time and not simply repeat your claims.
@Nogba
Err... few things emit photons in numbers that can be detected by the human eye. Lots of things reflect portions of photons that your eyes can detect.
Go into a deep cave and turn off all light sources. Can you see yourself? No? Why is that? Because you do not emit enough photons for your eyes to be able to see yourself.
Yet with a decent light source I can see you just fine.
Care to give a different reason why we cannot "see" god?
You do know what the most reasonable/logical answer is don't you?
@ Nogba
In order to present a respectable argument, it must be constructed on proven facts. Each and every brick in the foundation must be valid, and if just one is flawed, the entire argument crashes down. This is how it works.
Point one, I state that all mammals are warm blooded. Do you agree with that?
Point two, dogs are mammals. Do you agree with that?
Now that we have two valid and accepted points, then we can conclude dogs are warm blooded.
This is how it works, you must present valid facts. Just going off with ....1) he is a god. That is an assertion with no evidence. 2) we need a first cause, and your explanation was just an opinion with nothing to validate it.
You need to do better, in here we don't accept opinions as facts.
If you state that you believe in a god, but cannot present any evidence, and don't try to, then I will respect your opinion, step back, and wish you well. But if you state that you believe in a god, but cannot present any evidence, and then try to argue your god into existence with failed arguments and evidence, do you understand how this may affect my opinion of your position?
I'm not ignoring my feelings nor telling anyone what and how to be i.e. trying to control them and their thinking.
You just implied you'd like to commit a global genocide because you don't like what the atheists posting here think. Started a thread predicated on the premise you are ashamed at being part of humanity based on what atheists think and say here.
https://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/ive-never-felt-so-sha...
It didn't take long for your own posts to expose your lie now did it?
I think the issue most atheists, or at least critical thinkers have is that the kind of approach you are using is known as a god of the gaps fallacy.
Which simply put is, where you cannot explain something, you insert your god.
Personally I appreciate your honesty, it's rare on atheist forums, all I ask is an echo of others here... keep it to yourself, until you can demonstrably prove it!
As Hitchens said... "I hope I've made it clear that I'm perfectly happy for people to have these toys, and to play with them at home, and hug them to themselves and so on, and share them with other people who come around and play with their toys.
So that's absolutely fine. They are not to make me play with these toys. Ok? I will not play with the toys! Don't bring the toys to my house, Don't say my children must play with these toys!".
@Randomhero1982
hello,
Probably every body has a toy or work hard to have one and give it a name, and every body claim that he has a better toy.
not so different from a child !
The only one that can tell i think is some one that doesn't have a toyed mind.
That's probably an other god insertion for you :)
@ Nogba
"Probably every body has a toy or work hard to have one and give it a name, and every body claim that he has a better toy."
I advise you not to play volleyball or badminton, because that obvious analogy went right over your head.
Life is like a random fruit you ate in the past you don't remember it, it was just a moment you enjoyed and that's it.
anything that doesn't live for ever is meaningless i think.
what ever meaning you think you have, it dies when you die.
a dead meaning is not a meaning !
@Nogba
Do you think you will live forever?
No? If so:
Then, are you meaningless because you will not live forever?
@ Nogba
"anything that doesn't live for ever is meaningless i think"
So are you implying that something that exists "forever" has meaning?
I don't see the difference, on how anything exists.
For example, my body is a biological organism that has other organisms within it, that live in symbiosis. I have microorganisms within my digestive system that assist in nutrient metabolism.
I won't live forever, neither will those microorganisms within my body. But they seem to have a purpose.
If I live forever, those microorganisms within my body will live forever and have a purpose.
I don't see a difference. Whether something lives two hours or forever, that does not remove any purpose from that living organism.
There is no if about it, and how you feel about the inevitable end doesn't remotely validate anything. In fact it amazes me theists make this claim and don't see the enormous motive they are creating to delude themselves that their fear of death is unfounded. You know what else I find inexplicable about theists, it's the extra line breaks they keep adding to their posts, not just in this forum either, what the fuck is that about?
Here it is, the wheezy clapped out old theist pony being placed behind the cart. What objective evidence can you demonstrate that the existence of the universe has any overarching purpose or meaning? Start there, and all of a sudden your disappointment at the nature of existence is what becomes pointless and meaningless, the reality of the situation can't be changed by wishful thinking.
There is no objective evidence to support the idea that deluding yourself with blind faith will make your life have an overarching meaning that will transcend your inevitable physical death. It;s offence btw not offense (sic), and you are is abbreviated as you're, not your, which is a possessive pronoun.
I don't care what most people think, but it is always hilarious to me the way theists make unabashed claims to knowledge about what most people think, did you conduct a global survey? I apply the same standard to the god claim as I do to all others, that sufficient objective evidence be demonstrated to support it. Faith doesn't validate anything, it is simply a way to delude yourself. Oh and their is a possessive pronoun, there is an indication of a place or position. I wonder do you even know hos insulting and arrogant it is to imply atheists have not given the god claim sufficient thought? I have thought bout it, I will bet I have given it at least as much thought as you, and the inevitable conclusion is disbelief, because no one can demonstrate a shred of objective evidence for the claim, and it is asinine to simply ignore this and pretend it has validity using faith, as you could literally believe anything is true this way.
We? This is an atheist forum, i no more try to define the word god than I try to define unicorns. If you believe a deity exists it is for you to accurately define what that deity is, if you can't then that is a very poor start, you would also have to demonstrate objective evidence for this deity's existence and for your definition of its characteristics, if you can't then I will continue to disbelieve it exists, in fact i would have no real choice, as the delusion of faith is meaningless. Incidentally deluded is defined as believing something that is not true, since atheism is not a belief, but the lack or absence of one, it ipso facto cannot be a delusion.
@Nogba Re: Life is meaningless
Sooooo.... Are you saying all the years I have spent collecting, labeling, and categorizing my prized collection of used toothpicks has been a waste of time and means nothing?... *shoulders slumping*... *frowning*... But... but... I worked so hard to get them all. Thousands of them... From all over the world... Many of them used by some very famous people. And now I am being told my diligence and dedication was all completely pointless? All the dumpster diving behind upscale restaurants?... All those evenings hiding under kitchen and dining room tables waiting anxiously for a celebrity to finish picking his/her teeth?... All that time hiding in the bushes outside the homes of high-level politicians, avoiding security patrols, and bypassing motion-detector alarms waiting for the chance to rummage through their garbage cans?.... You mean it was all just a big waste of time?... *heavy defeated sigh*... *head hanging down*... *staring blankly at floor*... *arms hanging loosely at sides*... oh.... oh... oh... oh... *slowly shuffling out of room and down hallway*... oh... oh... oh...oh.... oh.....
I figure the topic is already ridiculed and reduced to a lump. Let's just wait when it bounces back off the wall again.
Okay, at this point I really must point out the elephant in the room. So, does Nogba have his hand up the ass of Flatland? Or does Flatland have his hand up the ass of Nogba? Just curious...
I could think the same about you and some others, tin-man, but I know better.
@Flatland Re: "I could think the same about you and some others, tin-man, but I know better."
...*chuckle*... Ah, thank you for confirming what I suspected.
Oh, and just because Cog stuck his hand up my ass that one time trying to find his pig nose does not count. And I would prefer not to speak anymore about that, because when Cog's hand got stuck, Old Man had to use a can opener to get him loose. Not a day I care to remember... *shudder*...
For every argument for a god there is a counter argument.
For every argument against a god there is no counter argument.
That's because people are free to believe what they want.
I fully agree, people are free to believe what they want. A truly important freedom we should all strive for.
This includes children. Yet billions of religious folks over thousands of years did not give their own children that option. THIS IS NOT FREEDOM of belief!
I believe I should not have to pay taxes, yet I do pay taxes, but the church folks don't in many parts of the world. Is that fair? They are also quite often EXCEPTIONALLY rich... The roman catholic church has its own friggin country with its own standing army and can make all its own laws. Even just guessing very conservatively at the wealth of RCC, would make the average capita wealth for those "citizens" in the millions of dollars.
I would have zero problem with religions/god ideas, if those people would stop forcing their unevidenced opinions on others. But they have not, for thousands of years they have not, all bigger dominant religions have long bloody histories of killing those that disagreed with them.
@ Flatland
"For every argument for a god there is a counter argument.
For every argument against a god there is no counter argument.
That's because people are free to believe what they want."
This god can not be proven, nor can it be disproven. Thus it falls into the category of all the many thousands of debunked gods.
But please understand this Flatland, theists are making a god claim, the only thing all us atheists are doing is asking for proof or evidence.
If I walked into my office and informed everyone that I could fly like Superman, I would have to back up my statement. If I offered just bullshit excuses and evasion, it would be reasonable for everyone in the office to label me as being full of shit.
Flatland, you stated you believe in a god. Please offer anything that can substantiate this statement. Feelings carry zero weight.
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