The Age of Consent
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@Algebe
isn't that cruel? I'm surprised you think that.
In the earliest Islamic law book written near the time of the prophet Muhammad there was a ruling for when a man rapes his captive/slave. It was a punishment for adultery for him and the woman goes free and is paid compensation.
Leper:
Maybe you didn't understand that I was being ironic. Or perhaps you're being ironic in return.
So I'll say it plainly. No woman needs to be forgiven for being raped. The only crime is that of the rapist. Unfortunately there are religions that take a different view.
@Leper: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/nov/03/somalia-rape-amnesty
So Islam FORGIVES women who are raped. What a truly odious and revolting superstition it is then to imagine a victim of a barbarically cruel act needs forgiving .
No, @Sheldon,you didn't read my post carefully, nor the Qur'an - If the woman is forced into prostitution. This doesn't automatically mean rape. And a woman may in fact have consolation for that she is forgiven by God.
@Leper
She is being forced, so in general, she is not giving consent. It doesn't matter if one time out of many she is ok with that.
@Talyyn
This isn't about age. The question was about rape. A slave forced into prostitution usually indeed is giving a type of a consent. She has options. Refuse, and be punished, suicide, escape or do it. Now mind you the Qur'an specifically forbids the master from doing this. But since she does usually have options she may need to know if that will be her sin if she chooses to obey. As there are women who would literally rather die. Especially if it means they cannot get to Jannah.
Wow! What a shitty way to treat women! I find it utterly disgusting to think it is better for a woman to die than to have sexual intercourse.
Re: Leper - "A slave forced into prostitution usually indeed is giving a type of a consent."
Or, to put it another way...
A person being held at gunpoint by a robber threatening to kill her if she does not give the robber her money is indeed giving a type of consent to being robbed, because she has options.
...*elbows resting on table*... *head bowed over table*... *eyes shut*.... *gently massaging temples with finger tips*... *slow deep breathing*... I swear... There are some truly FUCKED UP people in this world... *slowly shaking head in dismay*...
@Tin-Man
ôh Tin... i didn't read you using the argument of "being held at gunpoint"... Don't smash me oh oh
@Talyyn Re: "i didn't read you using the argument of "being held at gunpoint"... Don't smash me oh oh"
LOL... No worries. Great minds think alike... *chuckle*...
@Leper
Where did i talk about age? What do you not understand about slavery? Slavery doesn't give a damn about your consent!
If I am holding you on gunpoint, and I say to you to give me your car, you consider this a consent if you say yes? I don't care if your disgusting book says you have to treat slaves "well", it still condones slavery. How being treated as nothing more than a sex object is related to sin is beyond me.
PS: I am always interested as why theists here use the pseudonym they wear...Care to explain why you call yourself "Leper"?
@Talyyn
I thought you were referring to the topic of the thread. I may have been wrong.
You don't know anything about the Islamic view on slavery. Islam gave slaves rights they didn't have before. Before islam in Arabia and elsewhere in the world women could be sex slaves, they could be forced into prostitution they were free to be used by all members in the household, for sex. They could be beaten and tortured, - no one had any say on it but the master.
@Leper
While it is true i do not know much about islamic views on slavery... Slavery is still the privation of one's autonomy, property rights and identity, but we are digressing...
@leper
So you're saying that people following islam today have slaves, and they force the female slaves to have sex?
Re: Leper - "If the woman is forced into prostitution. This doesn't automatically mean rape. And a woman may in fact have consolation for that she is forgiven by God."
Curious.... As I pointed out in another thread, Leper's profile indicates female and Islamic. Now, I don't know about the rest of you folks, but I know I have never met another female who would ever make such remarks in defense of rape and prostitution. But, who knows?... *shrugging shoulders*... Maybe I've just led a sheltered life. Anyway, just wanted to point that out real quick for those who may not have noticed.
... *fanning hand in front of face*... Ewww... Would somebody please open a window? Smells like dirty socks in here.
Of course it does, by definition, and again what an odious revolting superstition Islam is if this what it's adherents believe.
Then again let me reiterate that Islam is a vile odious superstition if it indoctrinates any woman to believe she needs to be forgiven for being raped. Your views are nauseating.
Are you telling us not to do that; or are you telling us that isn't possible?
----------------------------------------------------------/e
Your post doesn't seem to address the recursive morality that Royism described to us. Yet your post is a reply to my pointing out of this problem. Given that situation: how is your post anything other than a non-sequitur?
@Nyarlathotep
I'm saying it isn't possible.
I didn't know it was a problem for you. I thought you didn't understand how the Qur'an is studied. All morality is recursive more or less.
@Nyarl
You said: “If you look closely, you'll realize that Royism is suggesting using the moral principles in the Quran to interpret the moral principles in the Quran. That is a new one for me: recursive morality!
Let’s say the quran says, “The blood of your brother is sacred.” One imam says, brother means only ‘Muslims’ and hence one should not kill Muslims alone. And another Imam says, brother means brother in humanity, meaning all humans. This is an interpretive issue. So, then what do you do. You analyze other verses of the quran that sheds more light on this maxim. And then you find the verse, “Saving one life is as though you have saved the whole of humanity.” That makes it clear that human life in general is considered sacred, and it doesn’t refer only to Muslims.
That’s one answer. However, Cyber’s initial question was about the application of a rule in a given context. And since we are on the topic of ‘age of consent’, I gathered that the premise of her question was about how a ruling that allowed the marriage of a young girl, become null in our times (as I was arguing in this thread).
And that’s when I said, it’s based on aligning the context to the principles of the scripture. For example, here is a ruling that ‘allows’ marriage of young girls, but DOES NOT stipulate a fixed age. So, firstly, it’s clear that it’s not necessary that one must get girls married young.
And then when you look at the other principles we find things like ‘Seeking knowledge is a fundamental duty of every Muslim male and Muslim female.”
When you compare the ruling (permitting early marriage but not insisting) and the principle (knowledge), and apply it to our current situation, it becomes clear that early marriage jeopardizes education, and therefore not advisable.
NOTE: this is not comprehensive. There is more to it. But for now, I think this would suffice.
@Royism:
You wrote all that but didn't address the recursion. Do you not understand the complaint? Or what?
/e Why don't you demonstrate that you are capable of understanding it, by restating my complaint in your own words? I might be wrong, but I'm betting you can't.
@Nyarl
You are saying that when two people differ over an interpretation of a verse in the quran, then you can't resolve it using the quran itself, right?
@ROYISM
My complaint was about the recursive nature of what you told us. Your summary of my complaint doesn't even mention recursion at all, but instead contains stuff I didn't say:
@Nyarl
so if you would be so kind as to explain what exactly your complaint is, i will try to address it.
@ROYISM :
Perhaps you could enlighten us as to why you would write a several paragraph explanation, in reply to a post you clearly don't understand? Is there no limit to your hubris? What is wrong with you?
"Perhaps you could enlighten us as to why you would write a several paragraph explanation, in reply to a post you clearly don't understand?"
I'm also quite lost. Where did this "problem you pointed out" come from and what is it about? You were commenting on the interpretation of the Qur'an. But now the topic is something else - something which, I presume, only you can understand.
Of all the people on this forum, apparently only the Muslims (well at least Leper and Royism) can't seem to figure it out.
And as strange as that is, I don't think anyone will be surprised by it.
@ Nyar
Oh I don't know if it is that strange, after all, they are the only two who can't figure out that rape and the rape of a child is amoral either.
@Old man shouts:
I didn't think it could get worse than Royism's defense of the rape of a 9 year old. But perhaps Leper's assertions that some rape victims aren't really rape victims because they could have chosen suicide instead; might actually be worse. It's like we've crashed through the floor and reached a new rock bottom.
@Nyarlathotep
...while we wait for them to explain it instead of just keep clicking agree.
@leper
Is it moral for a 50 year old man to have sex with a 9 year old girl? Is it moral to marry a child?
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