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I forsee any plan suggested to the usa will be claimed a communist plot by the republicans and a theocratic plot by the democrats simultaneously then they will realise their enemy does not want the plan and will finally agree on something to oppose the plan.
So you realize they both work for the same system, bound by the same set of rules. Quite right, they will oppose change. They're employed to do so. The question is; what are we gunna do about it?!
Right okay, as daft as I might look saying "I'm done with this conversation" then carrying on, we both seem to be missing each others points, so lets try clear this up. I'm not gunna go and depict every part your last post for the sake of these posts becoming tediously long. Yes, this conversation is definitely not helping me, or either of us achieve or understand much it seems.
.. So, as childish as this may sound, if you feel you could do a better job advertising TZM, I recommend you please do.. My approach was simply; since it's a movement based on the scientific method of understanding, which is strictly the examination of facts, it seems logical to present the facts, as boring and unattractive as it may be.. More on this inabit.
Okay. Charlatan definition: a person falsely claiming to have a special knowledge or skill. - Have I done this? .. I know you didn't say I AM one but just APPEAR to be one, but now you know that I am not, please stop with that shit!
Advertising definition: the activity or profession of producing advertisements for commercial products or services. - Am I doing this?
.. I am not trying to sell anyone anything, which logically should give you more reason to trust me than doubt me. Otherwise I'd just be wasting my time, to waste your time, which believe me I have no interest in.. How can I help you realize that the best way to understand TZM is to read the book, if just by saying that you are automatically put off the idea? I presented the mission statement which I think, when properly understood, is enough to compel one to read the book. Sorry it didn't have that effect with you..
.. "Don't focus on the content but the way of advertising something." - I really don't understand your point. If I'm not gunna focus on the content of what I'm "advertising," people aren't gunna learn about the content, which is all I am trying to encourage people to do!
You seem to be missing the point of TZM. Indeed I am saying, this is NOT the solution. This is something that has to be done first, in order for us to transition into a new way of life.. To clarify; The term “zeitgeist” is defined as the “general intellectual, moral and cultural climate of an era.” The term “movement” simply implies “motion” or change. Therefore, The Zeitgeist Movement is an organization that urges change in the dominant intellectual, moral and cultural climate of the time.. It would be dishonest and unscientific to make the claim that this is THE solution to all our problems and definitely will work. When properly understood, it certainly is logical to assume it will work, in fact it's logical to assume it would be the one of the greatest moments in human history. But we can't go telling people it definitely will be.
.. As we are, we can't transition into a RBE because we're not civilized. The vast majority is not aware of how this game (monetary system) really works. They're raised in it, accept their place in it, and live on. TZM is about the realization of a new train of thought. It is not a step by step plan on how to build a better world. Yes, this train of thought includes the advocacy for global sustainability via the introduction of a new global system. And many ideas on how we can improve or be done with certain areas of our society are presented. But first, we must change. That is the fundamental point. We can't have an established plan because anything established is illogical in an ever-changing world. It has to be emergent, it has to be open to change, for anything not open to change, due to our ever-expanding knowledge and capability, eventually becomes outdated and dangerous, ie; the monetary system. This is why The Venus Project and The Zeitgeist Movement parted ways; TVP presents a very particular and concentrated set of ideas, TZM understands that there is no set right or wrong way, and if we're going to do this (transition) it has to be emergent and flexible.. This movement is trying to snap people out of the commonly held thought that we need some sort of control because we're too primitive to survive without it. That's bullshit. Bullshit reinforced by the "law," religions, the educational system and the media. If we had a set plan, we'd be reinforcing the idea that humans need telling what to do (basically).. Ultimately, we're trying to get people to think. Not think like me, but take a step back, look at what we're actually capable of and think for yourself. Be your own leader. We don't need some gang (government/law enforcement) telling us what to do, but as of now that is very much the world that the vast majority have come to accept as completely normal. Until we can help people become aware of the reality, a transition to a new economy is just unreachable.. This is critical for you to understand because you seem to be expecting me to do something that (seemingly) you have a better understanding of. That's why I said you should do it yourself. I appreciate your help and advice but the fact here is; if you support TZM (good on ya) and think you could do a better job than me at "advertising" it, it's just logical for you to go ahead and do that. Maybe I will learn from that :)
.. Honestly I'm glad to hear you've had thoughts and ideas for an RBE, me too! And this is the point, trying to get people to think about how they could contribute, or what would they like to see. A lot of people feel the things they enjoy would be taken away from them if we transition but they couldn't be more wrong. The things they enjoy would be made better. Take sports for example; only the truly passionate athletes would make it to the big games, eliminating the business side of sport, which quite frankly just ruins it, which would eliminate the people who get into sport for the money (the wrong reason). This would make a sport fairer and more honorable to be involved in, and a lot more entertaining to watch. This train of thought can be applied to almost anything. Try it :) think of something and imagine how it could be better in a world without money.
..But yea as for a plan, I understand your point. But a plan has to be agreed upon, what is TZM to say "this is the plan?" Nobody has the right to say it's gunna be this way or that way, it has to be accepted by the majority. What plan does our current system have to get us out of this mess? None at all. Not one idea. In fact every second that goes by only digs us deeper in the shit, a known fact completely ignored by our "leaders" because they're getting paid enough.. Personally I trust scientists, technicians and engineers a lot more that I would a businessman, which is essentially all any governments are; gangs of businessmen. Employed to keep things the same, not change them.
To summarize: (sorry I've really babbled here) TZM presents the facts on just how badly this system, coupled with our adaptation to it, is destroying the planet and the species, and then a feasible idea of how we could change this. And first, again, it must start within ourselves. People need to understand why it's so important to change before they're willing to. That is TZM in a nutshell.. That's not to say there isn't things you could learn from reading the book (dam I said it again) just because you feel you're already 'there' and understand the problem and what has to be done. There's always more to learn :)
Well the video is a summary, and so of course doesn't present all the details. I think what they were trying to focus on was the reason why it's so important to change. And the basics of what a sustainable system would actually be.. Here's the first part of a recent 8 part lecture series. A bit more insightful than "the summary" (which yes I agree, didn't say enough but I'm not sure how much a summary can say!) .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzyW-igZlCU&list=UUEwoFdqY09VwZFESGZ8Qp4A
.. And I recommend the 'Culture In Decline' series if you're wanting a more fun approach to the idea.
Revolution is a mere change of mind. If the majority can get on the same logical train of though as promoted by TZM (but honestly, forget the name, it's the train of thought that matters) then amazing things could start happening, and sooner that we might think.
.. TZMs ultimate goal is to not exist anymore :)
I am glad to see that you are making a mature post again.
"if you feel you could do a better job advertising TZM, I recommend you please do"
I feel that TMZ fails in every respect since it lacks scope/plan, people resist change by nature unless it hits them personally.
If I myself cannot see any chance of success for TMZ, I cannot advertise it even if I think I can do a better Job and agree with their aspects.
I am not motivated enough, I would rather choose to favor an other more convincing movement even if I agree with TMZ.
I just feel that they are not good enough to lead this movement, they don't have what it takes.
Having a good movement is not enough if you don't have a good leader.(basis of warfare), Don't delude yourself, this is war, people with invested interest will hit ya with everything they got, if you have a weak leader game is over before you even start.
"It would be dishonest and unscientific to make the claim that this is THE solution to all our problems and definitely will work."
I didn't say that, i think I was clear on this point.
I said give the people a goal to reach, an objective, and TMZ does have them, but their leaders fail at putting this message forward.
One of the things TMZ does is removing the power of the rich and shifts it to the guys with knowledge.
This is not a solution to all problems but is a solution to bad management from corrupted leaders.
Since more intellectual leaders have better chances at making a good choice then rich people.(fact)
Thus all the advantages you mention(where I agree) will be feasible and realistic.(like sports, etc...)
I am not missing your points though(specify which one I missed?), TMZ is asking too much with little information or results, it has very little chances of even getting the attention needed to be a hindrance to the the big guys. If it does, it will be wiped out in an instant with just propaganda.
You must build a castle on solid foundations, TMZ is built on sand since it has weak leaders that fail at getting their message forward.
"Okay. Charlatan definition: a person falsely claiming to have a special knowledge or skill. - Have I done this?" Yes(but instead of falsely, appear falsely) You are claiming that TMZ is better and fail at giving a good explanation but demand people to read a book to fully understand it.(it doesn't matter if it's free, charlatans sometimes want just attention/notoriety)
But never mind this , I give Up, you are not a charlatan, and I have nothing to say on this matter that I haven't explained already.
If we read every book of what appears a charlatans demands us to read we would die and still be reading.
People tend to ignore those guys, that is why I ignored your posts originally.
"If we had a set plan, we'd be reinforcing the idea that humans need telling what to do (basically).. Ultimately, we're trying to get people to think."
We humans need someone to tell us what to do, it is built in our nature to follow by example and learn that way.So if we don't experience how it is to follow the rules we will not have the knowledge needed to start thinking of other options.
I don't know if you ever had a psychology lesson, but these are basics.
We are born and raised obeying our parents.(religion abuses this).
Advertising definition: the activity or profession of producing advertisements for commercial products or services. - Am I doing this?
Are you or are you not posting to make TMZ more known? TMZ is a free service
""Don't focus on the content but the way of advertising something." - I really don't understand your point."
hmm. I showed you an example of how to advertise something and you focused on criticizing what I was saying instead of criticizing on how to advertise, thus changing the subject.
"TZM presents the facts on just how badly this system, coupled with our adaptation to it, is destroying the planet and the species, and then a feasible idea of how we could change this. And first, again, it must start within ourselves."
Well here it is where it fails.
TMZ fails at seeing that you cannot win this game by winning the people, they are fighting a 1 man war against the mass media.
The rich finance most (if not all)of the mass media, you cannot use the people and at the same time not study the people.
About 70% of the population accept something only if the TV says so.
What chances does TMZ have against the propaganda machine the rich have already in place since the times of the Romans. NONE
You can see how they covered up the twin towers, only an idiot would not realize that there is no possible way that a plane could demolish a building in that way.
Yet people believe it because the TV says it was the plane.
People are like sheep, the only way to get to them is if you show them hard solid results.
If you cannot see this fact, then you need to study more history and see how the people are easily manipulated by those in power even in the most basic and obvious things.
Raising awareness won't help unless you have something solid to show. Then you must be built on solid ground to withstand the tsunami that the rich people will throw at you to ridicule your fact, and then if you survive you might make a difference, if you die they will just cover it up like they always did.
I am very sorry that you cannot see all the implications involved in such a huge shift of mentality Danny.
Only after you understand the implications involved and have studied hard every single one of them you might understand my points.
Right now as you said, you are missing most of my points.
"There's always more to learn :)"
Agree, i will read TMZ
Have a read:
Ten Reasons People Resist Change
http://blogs.hbr.org/2012/09/ten-reasons-people-resist-chang/
The Romans established Christianity and Rubinic Judaism to Mind Control the people, CIA expanded on that.
http://rense.com/general69/mass.htm
Hope this helps you to understand better what implications are involved here.
BTW people are brainwashed to treat anything related to mind control as conspiracy theory when in reality mind Control is a very real proven fact, that it did happen and is still happening today in politics.
I honestly think you miss, misunderstand, or misconstrue many of Danny's points.
Perhaps you just skim over what he rights perhaps its because your just argumentative, From my observation of your responses elsewhere you do make assumptions based on thing you say and things you think others say regardless of what was actually said which is a thing that annoys me to the point I had stopped responding to you in the do you fear death topic.
If you want to talk or debate with people I recommend you should put more effort into understanding what they actually say.
Your style of debate, you being an Atheist is the closest to that of a theist I think I have come across on this site. You seem to have a good command of the English language but this makes me think of a joke I heard a long time ago. "they knows enough to sound like an expert, but just enough to be dangerous when they try."
Okay. Just a quick one cause this is becoming more and more pointless to me.. Thanks for being a total patronizing dick with your "glad to see your posing mature again" bullshit after I clearly made the effort to be civil.
I'm not gunna go through all the points I made that you ignored because it will take to long, there are son many, and it would be a waste of my time since you seem to not be willing to even try and understand where I'm coming from. If you want to know, go back and read our entire debate, and read my posts properly. Here's one though. You ignored my point about a plan is something that must be agreed upon by the majority.. Leading by example and telling others what to do are very different things. You might think people need telling what to do, I dont, I think we're capable of making decisions for ourselves.
.. The goals of TZM are quite clear. I don't understand how you've missed them! It's a solid idea, with every fact presented with reason and source. How you don't think there's adequate information, I really don't know. My only guess is that you really don't know much bout TZM and are commenting based on your own idea of what TZM is. It's called a straw man fallacy, you build your own version (a straw man).. attack that and claim victory Meanwhile the actual idea stands completely untouched.
"TMZ fails at seeing that you cannot win this game by winning the people, they are fighting a 1 man war against the mass media" The media is controlled by PEOPLE. The majority is the only thing that can change this! And this isn't about "winning" anybody, but helping people realize the truth!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2JISEATisI
I did answer your point, It is you who failed to see my reply.
It is clear that you and I have different ideas of the people and their potential.
TZM requires a certain type of people like you and me, those people who question and try to understand things and not accept them because someone said so.
I responded to your points that were all related to the people being more informed.
You cannot change how people are, you can teach an ignorant person(we all are) but you cannot teach the stupid.
You cannot make people think the way you are expecting them to think.(the way of thinking)
Most of the people are stupid, that refuse to learn or understand something and like having it answered to them.
(that is why they rely on people with certificates instead of doing their own homework, so whatever the guy with the qualifications say must be the most likely answer)
That is the harsh truth.
You can keep building this idea that requires the type of people that are not in enough quantities as you are expecting or just face the truth that about 70% of the population are like mindless sheep and like to be like that.(I don't care attitude).
This is a way of thinking, you are born with it, it is not something you can teach after a person has reach some age.(maybe when they are still kids, but it is debatable)
You simply have the minority as your target audience and you are assuming that it is the majority.
That is why TZM is doomed to fail.
It is a bad strategy that can't possibly work since it is targeting the minority.
The institution has been studying the people and conditioning them for ages you cannot win using these petty methods.
You answer a question, not a point. And no you didn't.. To say "I feel that TMZ fails in every respect since it lacks scope/plan" is not really a comment on the idea of a plan being mutually agreed upon by the majority.. Say if TZM did have a plan, if they had a step by step instruction manual on the creation of a NLRBE. How long do you think it would be before people rejected it with some kind of "who the fuck are these guys" mentality? Most people wouldn't even understand it! That's why TZM presents an idea, covering all the factors involved to create a truly sustainable system, and asks you to make your own mind up. I'm up to this part in the book, I recommend you read it in order to maybe help with your wants of a plan. (dam I feel like a theist promoting it like that :o At least I'm providing a link so you can read what you want and not just random verses!) - http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/orientation#faq14
TZM does NOT require a certain type of person, it considers every person an equal part of one global family.
.. "You cannot change how people are, you can teach an ignorant person(we all are) but you cannot teach the stupid." Eeerrm, people are only stupid if they haven't been taught better. We're all stupid, until we learn to not be.
.. "Most of the people are stupid, that refuse to learn or understand something and like having it answered to them." .. It's not a case of people liking having it answered to them, it's a case of been used to it. This is what they get brought up doing, and get taught this is the right way. This "mindless sheep" mentality isn't just some naturally occurring phenomenon, it's taught. It's promoted through the educational system, which is of course another "add-on" of the monetary system, and so of course, is there to produce servants of the system and not intelligent, critical thinking minds. How many times have you read me say this a matter of education. True education. To say people are actually incapable of understanding something which would improve their quality of life, and ultimately is not that complicated to understand, is pretty sad, and my advice to you on that is have a little faith in humanity.
.. Our way of thinking is not something we are born with. It is everything after we're born that develops who we become; what we're taught, what we experience, our environment etc (long list) .. We only inherit so much from our parents, and the ability to to become intelligent is not on the list. We all have that capability (the mentally ill excluded of course) and granted it becomes more difficult once we reach a certain age, (My opinion is that even that is also because of what the system promotes though, since it's considered the norm to stop learning, then work with what you've learned.. then watch TV!) but it's not impossible. And no-one is saying transition would be a piece of cake, and yes, some of the more heavily conditioned could face some mental health issues from it, this has to be acknowledged. But this is not to say the majority will, and certainly not to say this species as a whole is already too far gone in this crazy game to realize that it is just a game.
I am targeting A minority; this forum. And I speak for me, not the entire movement.. Millions of others are spreading the word in other ways. If I have helped one person understand then I have made a difference. Every little helps.
.. My only "strategy" is presenting the facts in hope people will choose to learn more about TZM. This is only trying to convince people of the truth and whats best for the future of this species.
And hey anyway, in an earlier post you said "BTW I support TMZ since its the beginning of what I wish the society was." .. But you also think it is "doomed to fail." So it would be more of a hope that it works, rather than support.
.. The bottom line here is, as of now, you are the evidence that TZM can't happen. Saying things like it's "doomed to fail," admittedly without fully getting to understand it, is all the proof we need that this is hopeless. Suppose someone reads your posts and has agreed with other things you have said, in this thread or others, and so believes your opinion on this to be correct. Now suppose that same person who agrees with your other stuff sees you saying that it's a great idea and worth learning about (you know how people "like to have it answered to them") Do you see the chain reaction?
.. Still I keep hope, because TZM simply makes logical sense, and if I can understand that, along with millions of others, I believe the majority can. I'm not the sharpest pencil in the box, so if I get it, so can anyone.
Yes the majority are conditioned by the institution, but more and more are waking up every day.
.. This is something that is in the best interest of all humanity, that is, the ones who care about their young loved ones, which is pretty much everyone, and something that, scientifically, is totally possible. That's why it is worth supporting and spreading the word of.
Believe in us man
"mutually agreed upon"
No plan starts that way, it starts by the brightest persons coming up with an idea, the other bright persons choose to agree with it or not, then the less sharp persons are explained this idea and they might agree or not depending on their bias.
"who the fuck are these guys" mentality?" Yes this is a type of bias
It could be:
"wow, this is the guy with so many qualifications that came up with this idea, and he is also american so it must be a good idea"
You are mixing up classes of people as if they are all at the same level of intelligence. Which is absurd.
"TZM does NOT require a certain type of person, it considers every person an equal part of one global family."
Considering everybody as equals as rights is one thing, considering everybody as a smart person is an other thing entirely.
TMZ is expecting everybody to be open minded/intelligent and so are you.
"Eeerrm, people are only stupid if they haven't been taught better. We're all stupid, until we learn to not be."
Your failure to understand the difference between stupidity and ignorance is the reason you cannot understand reality and my arguments.
Stupidity is a lack of intelligence, understanding, reason, wit, or sense.
Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge).
See now that you were defining ignorance not stupidity.
"It's not a case of people liking having it answered to them, it's a case of been used to it. This is what they get brought up doing, and get taught this is the right way. This "mindless sheep" mentality isn't just some naturally occurring phenomenon, it's taught."
I agree, but only the ignorant can be thought, the stupid will not be moved, they are mindless sheep no matter how much TMZ shouts.
Your lack of understanding how many stupid people are around you is an other factor that hinders your argument.
"Our way of thinking is not something we are born with. It is everything after we're born that develops who we become; what we're taught, what we experience, our environment etc (long list) .. We only inherit so much from our parents, and the ability to to become intelligent is not on the list."
As I told you, this argument is debatable but most scientist agree that intelligence is something you are born with. Geniuses are a perfect evidence for this.
But this is irrelevant since TMZ is not aimed for the kids but for the adults which are already "heavily conditioned".
So TMZ method is simply ineffective as I claimed.
"Do you see the chain reaction?"
Yes i see it, I am not helping TMZ when an ignorant/stupid person reads my posts. If a smart individual reads my post will arrive at the same conclusion but instead try to fix TMZ on a better course that does have some hope of success.
If I had to give an analogy of what TMZ is doing:
Since English is a universally used language and communication is the best way of learning thus learning English is a good way of improving a society.
That is why TMZ is focusing on teaching English to lions so they can integrate in society better.
Just like lions, the stupid do not have the package required to understand the IDEA that TMZ is putting forward. Also it is debatable if baby lions can just understand the IDEA even if they can't speak it.
"Yes the majority are conditioned by the institution, but more and more are waking up every day."
Agree, but not in the quantities you wish, and it would take about a few billion years before that quantity reaches half the population.
Since the conditioning is always more effective then reason(with kids) in this world.(religion is a perfect example here and we all know that they even trow away reason in the bin not only inteligence)
"scientifically, is totally possible."
Here is an other point where we disagree and I have pointed this out already in the TMZ topic. It is possible but you cannot prove it.
People with agendas(money) will attack this aspect harshly.
You are fighting an impossible battle against the propaganda machine where the only way to win is to have the facts to show to the people.
Tesla having those facts and showing publicly wireless energy, failed in this. What can you do better? What chances do you have with just arguments?
No chance at all.
Once we have unlimited free energy established as a fact then yes, NLRBE has a chance of being created. Until there is free energy it is like talking to a wall. Tesla saw this and tried but failed . TMZ didn't see this and is doomed to fail for their idea of NLRBE.
Technology is built in steps, you don't get a mobile before you have electricity. NLRBE just can't function well without unlimited electricity, else it will be dependent too much on normal countries to provide for the NLRBE country. I studied this well and it is an absolute requirement to be self sufficient and thus be accepted.
"Believe in us man"
I don't believe in anybody, I look at the facts and claculate probabilities.
What TMZ is proposing has 0 probability of working in a 500 years period since it lacks the facts to convince the stupid people which make up the majority of the population world wide.
TMZ is right but is not realistic, it's way of promoting the idea is not a good one and I have proven it.
I wouldn't trust TMZ since I can see that they don't know what they are doing even if they got the right idea.
When you deal with people, you are dealing with politics, you cannot have a leader which has the right idea but has killed/raped/failed many times.
If everybody was intelligent and just ignorant their method would work but that is not reality but a fantasy world.
TMZ fails at seeing that the approach of having a good, sound method of spreading their idea is the most important part.
Don't get me wrong, what TMZ is doing is just 1 aspect that must be done by any organization that pursues the objective of getting a NLRBE.
Though it is something you do complimentary of what you are trying to do.
Raising awareness is a good thing but you must realize that it just helps and not use it as the means of getting to NLRBE.
There are better and more realistic means of getting to NLRBE.
One of them is through proving that the system works.
Lead by example is always one of the most effective ways.
Well nice thought, maybe you are right, but since you didn't dignify me with Supported claims, but just claims, I will just respect your opinion and move forward.
If you insist that you are right, next time quote where you think I "misunderstand, or misconstrue".
As far as I know, I started by arguing on the advertising part, that was the subject, then Danny shifted the argument on TMZ, I did not read TMZ as I have stated since it did not catch my interest and was not the argument in question.
Then I read some of it later and was just as I expected, they lack a decent plan and a way to make it clear to people.
If you think I am wrong about this, please enlighten me.
Danny agreed and said himself that there isn't a plan, it is just the beginning to let the people know more things.
Then I showed my opinion why their approach is a bad approach since the people are easily manipulated by the guys with the money. Then supplied evidence to support this argument.
It would do me a favor to know my mistakes so please show me where I was wrong.
Yes I am a bit argumentative, I will give you that. But it doesn't mean that my arguments were wrong.
Which is what you are implying when saying "misunderstand, or misconstrue".
BTW which points did Danny make that I missed? No one answered that yet. I would like to know.
Jeff, do you consider yourself open-minded?
Yes, but why do you ask such a question?
Did I show that I am not ready to change my position if presented with reasonable arguments?
probably yes, I tend to be too strait forward and forget to state things I agree about sometimes.
Which makes me look aggressive maybe.
Still hate unsupported claims unless they are completely obvious.
Though it is reasonably to assume that what is obvious for me might not be for you and vice versa.
That is where misunderstandings occur usually.
Here is why I asked:
Earlier you said, "The way to present stuff to people is the most important thing, sometimes even then (sic) the stuff itself."
I'm wondering if you are open-minded enough to consider that how you present your 'stuff' could be off-putting to someone. Maybe it's just poorly advertised. You, after all, wonder if you might sound aggressive.
Of course, just as you endeavored to do for Danny, I say these things only to try to help you.
I agree You are right.
I think i am aggressive in my approach.
Yet I feel that if i am not, I might be taken out by my bias.
So if i am talking to a christian and i understand that he thinks that God is love and thus i try to be more gentle I end up saying something which i don't agree.
thus being dishonest with myself.
there is also the aspect of me being a perfectionist on some day of the week and on others I just don't care.
I find it hard to understand how my brain thinks sometimes.
So I don't expect someone else to understand me.
I appreciate your thought here and maybe I approached Danny not as I should have.
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